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A Long View of Vatican II
Gloria.TV – News Briefs  13/10/2011 06:19:34
A Long View of Vatican II

Catholics of my generation – the generation that came of age during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II – find it almost impossible to imagine the way the world was on October 11, 1962, the day the Second Vatican Council opened.

My generation knows only the post-Conciliar Church with its priest shortages, parish and school closings, and empty confessionals. Dissent, if “grayer” and less energetic than in recent decades, is in many ways more widespread and deeply engrained, especially on questions of sexual ethics and family life.

The self-inflicted wounds of the sex-abuse scandals fester while the enemies of the Church revel in recounting the sins and crimes of her priests.

Liturgy, if not the mess it once was, rarely soars and occasionally wallows. But then, how could it be otherwise, given how ugly our church buildings are these days.

The list of gripes is scandalously long.

Compare all this to my generations oft received (and only half-true) account of the pre-Conciliar Church – pious, devout, and vibrant; liturgies well incensed and in Latin – and it’s easy to see the Council as the beginning of a time of decline, dissolution, and decay.

In some sense, of course, it was.

The Council was convened before the most violent eruptions began, the cultural vents and spiritual rifts that spewed so much billowing smoke and toxic fume in the ensuing years had been opening and rumbling for decades, though few had the wisdom or vision to see.

Read more at The Catholic Thing
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philosopher  17/10/2011 13:40:41
Thanks ACL .
Human potential psychology of which Jung is a major element sounds a lot like the thought of Nietzsche and his predecessors like Protagoras and Antiphon, whom, advocated contra Socrates, Plato and Aristotle that the passions should rule over the intellect and reason is to be thrown out the window. A recipe for not only unhappiness but irresponsibility and a life of disvalue. But, how many Catholic colleges still teach this garbage in their psych classes, even while they maintain … [More]
ACLumsden  16/10/2011 20:23:31
Hey Philosopher , there is a video of that unfortunate incident here on Gloria.TV......
philosopher  16/10/2011 16:49:29
ACL, good point. Lets not leave out the great psycho-babblers. You reminded me of a BBC video documentary about a California convent of the Immaculate Heart with an orthodox order in the early 1970's. They had a Jungian psychotherapist conduct a seminar based on Jung's thought and the human potential movement; after which, several of the nuns decided to try lesbianism, others promiscuous liaisons with local men in the area. Eventually, all the nuns lost their faith and left the convent, which … [More]
ACLumsden  16/10/2011 11:47:08
@Philosopher - Bull's Eye!! Not to mention Jung (who tried to 'dabble' in theology whilst messing with psychology)!!
philosopher  16/10/2011 08:19:17
@SB- quite right. I would only think that there were more than one definitive cause of the problems of the post VII era, but more like a set or series of causative factors that led to a perfect storm. The weaknesses of Pope Paul's pontificate are just one of many, which also include the Episcopate, and theologians as represented by the likes of Rahner and Kung.
philosopher  15/10/2011 16:10:00
I would think that the both the statistics, and attitudinal changes in almost all spheres of the Church, and in the seminary educational strategies were products of the weaknesses in Pope Pius VI pontificate. Some scholars like Jean Guitton's analysis was a weakness in character; others like Romano Amerio place it in a defective plan to adapt the Church to the spirit of the age, but he does not think it was out of volition but out of circumstance. Pope Paul tended to be to passive against the … [More]
ACLumsden  13/10/2011 22:42:10
Tu_es_Petrus: Quite! I know many saecular Priests who are completely ignorant of the Latin language, Scholastic Theology, Philosophy and even an introduction to Historical Christian Theology. As Seminarians, they just read psychology, sociology, alot of Jung and his cronies with two-three terms of "theological reflection" (into which the formator/formatirx tried to shoe-horn three years of "bible study"). Twas only in their last year (5th year for many?), they did some homiletics and IF lucky, … [More]
Tu_es_Petrus  13/10/2011 22:22:18
Kinda makes you wonder about all those priests from 1975-1980. When were they trained anyway? It seems that the bulk was around 1960.
ACLumsden  13/10/2011 22:06:05
@Tu _es_Petrus - INDEED that man! tbswv sites statistics without the concomitant sociological changes and changes in World culture. Nothing exists in a vacuum, statistics notwithstanding! The Second Oecumenical Council of the Vatican addressed these changes; the Episcopate did not. Quite simple really.
Tu_es_Petrus  13/10/2011 21:57:44
Before I assign cause to this effect, I'd be interested in statistics that look a bit further back than Vatican II (perhaps 1900?). Was it already a trend in 1965 or did it begin soon after?

EDIT (I just dug this up):

1920 Priests=21019 Seminarians=8944
1930 Priests=26925 Seminarians=16300
1940 Priests=33912 Seminarians=17087
1950 Priests=42970 Seminarians=25622
1960 Priests=53796 Seminarians=39896
1975 Priests=58909 Seminarians=17802
1980 Priests=58621 Seminarians=13226
1990 Priests=53111 … [More]
tbswv  13/10/2011 21:50:07
For those who have taken me to task in regards to Vatican II, I would only reiterate the "fruits" we have observed since the Council closed from a statistcal perspective:
-in 1965 there were 58,000 priests in the US and that number has dropped to 45,000 in 2002
-in 1965 there were 1575 ordinations, in 2002 there were 450
-in 1965 there were 549 parishes without a resident priest, in 2002 there 2,928 priestless parishes
-between 1965 and 2002 the number of semenarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700 [More]
philosopher  13/10/2011 18:30:01
It seems my last sentence was cut off. I meant to say that, I would add, that Pope Paul VI, and in some cases John Paul II, for example the Assisi debacle and allowing altar girls, also oversaw problematic strategies that were pejorative to the faith.
philosopher  13/10/2011 18:23:26
ACL and SB, are quite right. VII documents actually say that Latin is to be “retained” in the Latin rite. There are only ambiguities when one attempts to interpret the VII documents doctrinally. If it is viewed through the lens of Sacred Tradition and the whole Magisterium (not just the present one), the pastoral nature of the documents do not contradict doctrine or dogma. The problem is in how the strategies of pastoral care have been organized, directed, and carried out, which have been … [More]
ACLumsden  13/10/2011 15:35:49
I thought this article to be a very well balanced, well written piece of good Catholicism. Consider both the good and the bad, then, like our forefathers did before us, move forward with faith that God is in charge; no man can derail the Church in all that is 'visible and invisible'. DO not let your faith be shaken by the frailty of men, but cling unto the constancy of God. THIS is good Catholicism; that of all Her Saints, Doctors and holy people. We do well to keep this in mind.
ACLumsden  13/10/2011 15:14:50
Inaddition to soc and SboC: Sacrosanctvm Concilivm did NOT state that the Liturgy of the Roman Church is no longer Latin, nor does it state the the New Missal is no longer to be in the Latin language. (Be ware of the man of ONE book!!) The vernacular was offered to the world in order to benefit the faithful in missionary lands, and for unique pastoral reasons e.g. Masses to children, etc. The council Fathers, as Ben.XVI says in his Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentvm Caritatis (2007), envisioned … [More]
Simple but orthodox Catholic  13/10/2011 11:47:19
@ signofcontradiction YES!!!
SboC
signofcontradiction  13/10/2011 11:44:12
@ tbswv - Your quotation from the Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis Redintegratio #1), is taken out of context. The full paragraph makes it clear that the Catholic Church has not changed its teachings. The observation that even non-Catholics long for unity is not an expression of heresy.

The document is referring to the "longing," found among many Christians who are non-Catholic, for a truly universal Church. That longing for unity is a good thing, inspired by Christ himself, although the Council … [More]
holyrope 3  13/10/2011 10:23:02
As Pope Paul VI has said, "the smoke of Satan" has entered into the Church... how true this is. With the priestly sexual abuses, homosexuality, trying to refuse the faithful communion because they wish to receive kneeling and on the tongue, gay priests, lesbian 'nuns'...even involved in wicca, new age and worse! Thanks be to God for priests like Fr. Rodriguez who isn't afraid to speak the truth of the evils that have followed the Vat II Council.
Simple but orthodox Catholic  13/10/2011 10:06:08
@ tbswv - as Catholics we are not free to pick and choose from Ecumenical Councils what we like and dismiss and disparage what we don't like. Catholicism isn't a "smorgasbord" ... unfortunately or fortunately. The Second Vatican Council was the 21st Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church. Whether we like it or not, that is a fact ... and as you say this Council is "valid". As such one must accept all its decisions. If one does not accept that the 2nd Vatican Council is Ecumenical then one … [More]
tbswv  13/10/2011 09:40:47
"The Long View" is that this Council - although valid - has done more harm than good. I've read some of the Vatican II documents and they are ambiguous, and in direct opposition to previous Church teaching.
For example, Vatican II's Decree on Ecumenism. It teaches that "almost everyone longs for a truly universal Church whose mission is to convert the whole world to the gospel, so that the world may be saved, to the Glory of God." The Roman Catholic Churchis the one true Church. Another VII … [More]
holyrope 3  13/10/2011 08:34:14
thank you for this article
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