Hello again! I hope I can continue reading enlightened commentary here. My manners have changed quite a lot since I last posted on this site. Please forgive me for past offenses.

@Iraneaus & StarlightSeraphim - Thank you dear brothers. I rather think that on both sides, there is a lack of definitive knowledge of the other; alot of orthodox go by what they 'hear' Roman Catholicism is all about, rather than reading from the Latin documents themselves. On the other hand, Roman Catholics never darken the door of an Orthodox Church because of old prejudicial and segregationalist rules (e.g. in the old Code of Canon Law which forbade any Catholic to enter ANY other church.... … [More]

Iraneus,
Thank you for your continued honest and sincere discussion. I too have a family of Catholic and Orthodox and sincerely pray hope unity comes for the coming generation. As far as it is helpful, I would like to continue.

There was another article also by Fr. Thomas Hopko that talks about the many issues between East and West that would have to be resolved before unity could be restored.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/HopkoPope.php

A video that draws heavily from this article … [More]

Hello StarlightSeraphim,

Catholics do not believe the Pope has authority above an ecumenical council. So technically, it is not as top down as you think. The Pope cannot create new truths. He can only confirm that which has already been revealed as part of the Tradition of the Church. On the extremely rare event in history that a Pope promulgates a dogma. i.e. Immaculate Conception. This is not done in a vacuum. It is debated, and its outcome is under the guidance of the Holy Ghost. Just as … [More]

ACLumsden,

You said "...From conversations with Eastern Orthodox people, one in communion with Rome, the other not in communion with Rome, my impression is that of rigorous resistance to theological development as society progresses and so to, man's experiences of God. Hence the Orthodox Church's growing irrelevance to modern people."

The way I understand it, it is not a resistance to the idea of theological development, but rather the idea that theology can be altered or moved unilaterally. … [More]

Hello StarlightSeraphim,

No need for apologies. If you seek unity than you are a friend. All love seeks unity.

You stated:
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I had seen the Letter of Clement to be the Corinthians before but the language used is with a fraternal exhortation and does not appeal to Peterine texts or claim extraordinary jurisdiction.
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A quick comment on Pope St. Clement. His epistle was penned with charity, but it was also very clear on what should be accepted as part of the Faith. The mere fact he sent … [More]

Ireneaus,
Thank you for clarifying your position. My apologies for taking offense. The reason I used examples beyond the chart was that the point was that the Roman Pontiff is not immune to heresy nor is any one Bishiporic. That is why it was always so important that the Church functioned as it was made to. The role of the papacy did change drastically in the middle ages. I had seen the Letter of Clement to be the Corinthians before but the language used is with a fraternal exhortation and does … [More]

@Iranaeus - I rather think you will find that your efforts are like unto trying to uproot British Isles from their Continental Shelf and place then into warmer a warmer climate.

The East are resolute in their paralysis and as SBpfu said, quite ossified. However, all the best with this effort if you should choose to continue.

Hello StarlightSeraphim,
You stated:

[---

If you are trying to show by this chart that the East is led by heretics and Rome alone is free from error that is untrue and not support by history nor is that attitude consistent with the Faith of the Apostles. The Church has always been conciliar. All must work together to preserve it, any bishop or Pope can be in error but the truth is preserved by keeping what was passed down to us. Peter himself was publicly resisted to his face by St. Paul … [More]

Hello StartlightSeraphim,

You stated:

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St. Athanasius, was condemned by Pope Liberius though he was the leader of the defenders of orthodoxy against Arianism at the time. St. Athanasius told us that “Catholics faithful to Tradition” can be “reduced to a handful”. He wrote during the Arian crisis, when the global episcopacy defected to Arianism and Pope Liberius went into heresy, signed a heretical Arian creed and invalidly excommunicated St. Athanasius, as did the heretical … [More]

HUmmmm... however, the Constantinopolitan Emperor was possesed of similar powers. The Church of the East cannot seem to evolve, because the Emperor is to convene an oecumenical council. But there is no Emperor anymore, therefore, no possibility of any progess in this regard.

From conversations with Eastern Orthodox people, one in communion with Rome, the other not in communion with Rome, my impression is that of rigorous resistence to theological development as society progresses and so to, … [More]

The Gregorian reforms of the 11th century signaled a radical departure in the Western Church from the Church of the Ecumenical Councils. The ancient collegial structure of Church government, which offered a common forum for churches both East and West to settle differences and thus provide a common bond, was to be replaced in the West by a Papal Monarchy, exercising an authoritarian, highly centralized form of Church government that ultimately controlled every aspect of Church life. Through its … [More]

In regards to your chart:

St. Athanasius, was condemned by Pope Liberius though he was the leader of the defenders of orthodoxy against Arianism at the time. St. Athanasius told us that “Catholics faithful to Tradition” can be “reduced to a handful”. He wrote during the Arian crisis, when the global episcopacy defected to Arianism and Pope Liberius went into heresy, signed a heretical Arian creed and invalidly excommunicated St. Athanasius, as did the heretical bishops of the East.

“Even if … [More]

@Irenaeus - A fine discussion indeed!! Keep it up that man!

Hello StarlightSeraphim,

You stated "In the Greek this talks about origin, it is clear that while Christ sends the Spirit it originates from the Father, defined in Orthodoxy as the font of Divinity."

Yes, the origin is something different than the cause. If I have a fountain of water, and I give you a cup of it, where does the water proceed from? The person that caused it to be in your hands or its origin? I would say the person that caused it to be in your hands because the existence/origin … [More]

Irenaus-

"I am not sure who Paul Owens is but I dont think he chooses his words carefully enough. He described the Trinity as three modes which is the heresy of Modalism. Catholics dont believe Trinity is represented by three modes. Perhaps he meant three relations/persons?"

I think that is what he meant too.

Right about Latin and Greek, for Orthodox the problem is that in John 15:26 Christ said He will send the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father. In the Greek this talks about origin, … [More]

Hello StarlightSeraphim,

I am not sure who Paul Owens is but I dont think he chooses his words carefully enough. He described the Trinity as three modes which is the heresy of Modalism. Catholics dont believe Trinity is represented by three modes. Perhaps he meant three relations/persons?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism

If you want an authentic Catholic perspective on the Trinity, I would read someone with better credentials such as St Thomas Aquinas in the Summa or Contra Errores … [More]

In an outstanding article on the Trinity written by Paul Owen, this distinction is well explained:
“First of all, mainstream Christians distinguish between the Trinitarian economy of God, and the Trinitarian ontology of God. What does that mean? These terms are an attempt to come to grips with two aspects of God’s relationship to the world: his otherness (transcendence), and his presence in the world (immanence). God is not, in his essence, a part of the space-time continuum which we might … [More]

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, well this video is worth a million words! The contrast between the two liturgies couldn't be any more polar from one another. Watching this video reinforced in me the reason why I converted to Orthodoxy. I didn't leave the Church, the post modern Vatican II Catholic Church left me.

Dear friends - Is it not much more enjoyable to engage in this current polite dialog than to insult one another? I appreciate your keen interest in this subject. Who are we as simple lay people to articulate correctly the high theological issues in this discussion? I think we can only express our personal views with respect for one another.

Reader Michael said-
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The "filioque" actually changes the nature of the Trinity.
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Not so. The Creed was a positive set of statements. It formulated a set of clauses that we know to be true. It did not define the universal set of all truths, such that anything missing from the Creed must be false. It was not an exclusive and comprehensive definition on the Trinity. You can say some things that are true, but you cant possibly say everthing that is true about the mystery of God.

For … [More]

irenaeus - There is so much more to articulate on the matter, but it just might take us a few years of vollies to and fro.....

ACL,

Well said.

All truth finds its source in God. Whether they be philosophical, scientific, or
theological.

Good afternoon gentlmen. I rather think that it would be monumentally difficult to really get into the whole 'omoousion debate here. Especially since the Patristic Church took so long (and sacrificed so many lives, tongues, other body parts and communities 'anathama'), to work through and formulate the concept of the Trinity, i.e. put onto paper a mystery for which words do little justice.

On the other hand, as human intellect developed throught the ages, (e.g. from the Apostolic age to say … [More]

One act of charity speaks more eloquently of God than the finest theology.

My dear irenaeus -

You and I are so close in belief. Actually, I am quite certain that a very large number of truly devout and obedient Roman Catholics and I would agree on almost every theological point we could discuss.

The "filioque" actually changes the nature of the Trinity. "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God...And in the Holy Spirit..." It is difficult to see how the Lord and giver of life can proceed through the Father AND Himself. [More]

Reader Michael,

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With the single exception of the "filioque" I think it's fair to say all of us agree to the standards set in the Nicean Creed.

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Not exactly, we as Catholics do not disagree with the words of the original formulation according to their original interpretation. Even the Pope said them (sans filioque) last year in Greek together with Patriarch Bartholomew. Catholics who said those words in years past were not bad Catholics. We also do not disagree with the even older … [More]

With the single exception of the "filioque" I think it's fair to say all of us agree to the standards set in the Nicean Creed.

The Nicean Creed addresses all of your concerns I believe. At any rate, except for some rebels the Orthodox Church sees everything you cited as heresies the same as you.

Nestorianism is a Christological doctrine advanced by Nestorius, Patriarch of Constantinople from 428–431. The doctrine, which was informed by Nestorius's studies under Theodore of Mopsuestia at the School of Antioch, emphasizes the disunion between the human and divine natures of Jesus. Nestorius' teachings brought him into conflict with some other prominent church leaders, most notably Cyril of Alexandria, who criticized especially his rejection of the title Theotokos ('Mother of God") for … [More]

Monophysitism: a Christian heresy of the 5th and 6th centuries that challenged the orthodox definition of the two natures (human and divine) in Jesus and instead believed there was a single divine nature.