For Cardinal Schönborn, the Request to Ordain Women is Not a Problem

For Cardinal Schönborn, the Request to Ordain Women is Not a Problem Vienna According to his spokesman, Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna has “no problem with the requests of the Austrian priests …More
For Cardinal Schönborn, the Request to Ordain Women is Not a Problem
Vienna
According to his spokesman, Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna has “no problem with the requests of the Austrian priests belonging to the dissenting “Pfarrer-Initiative” - Pastors' Initiative. The Initiative was published on June 19th as a “Call to Disobedience”.
The spokesman explained that Card. Schönborn has a problem only with the polemical tone of the “Call to Disobedience”. Before representatives from “gloria.tv”, the spokesman stressed the necessity to further clarify the content of the requests.
These are the demands that cause no problems: ordination of women, lay-homilies, Holy Communion for adulterers.
Furthermore, the “Pastors' Initiative” requests Sunday services without priests rather than to rely on priests coming from another community. Other demands include a new “image of the priest”, married priests and the ordination of women.
Is one free to adhere to heresy?
According to his spokesman, …More
ACLumsden
What is being said here can be summerized as follows:
All men are free to express their oppinion as a function of their freedom of speech. Roman Catholic men are no different in this freedom so to do. Nevertheless, the Roman Church is not a democracy! Therefore, "Pfarrer-Initiative" may make all the requests they desire, have them published and all the rest of it. However, His Emminence is not …More
What is being said here can be summerized as follows:

All men are free to express their oppinion as a function of their freedom of speech. Roman Catholic men are no different in this freedom so to do. Nevertheless, the Roman Church is not a democracy! Therefore, "Pfarrer-Initiative" may make all the requests they desire, have them published and all the rest of it. However, His Emminence is not obliged to heed any of it (nor can he!).
ACLumsden
@Sign - The proclamation of Mary Co-redemtrix has been a problem for many years. JPII tried to ekk out the theology and all the rest of it. However, the difficulty with this is that Scripture is explicit in that there is only one redeemer, and one mediator between God the Father and man, namely Jesus the Christ.
They have tried to define this 'one' in terms of Mary the Mother of the son Jesus …More
@Sign - The proclamation of Mary Co-redemtrix has been a problem for many years. JPII tried to ekk out the theology and all the rest of it. However, the difficulty with this is that Scripture is explicit in that there is only one redeemer, and one mediator between God the Father and man, namely Jesus the Christ.

They have tried to define this 'one' in terms of Mary the Mother of the son Jesus together as this 'one'; that metaphysically, Mother and Son are 'one'. Nevertheless, we keep hitting upon the explicity of Scripture, which denies this Co-redemtrix business. We are dealing with the Second Person of the Trinity now (the Son) - not just Mary.

Since we are trying to amalgamate the Son with Mary, we are tampering with Trinitarian theology, and therefore with Patristic Trinitarian theology and ultimately, the Dogma of the Trinity. Can the Trinity admit a fourth into His community of Three (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)?

So we can now appreciate the magnitude of the proposed Co-redemtrix theory, i.e. a complete break with tradition and scripture. This is of such a grave nature that one cannot call it "innocuous".

😇
Holy Cannoli
Irenaeus:
Good find.
👍More
Irenaeus:

Good find.

👍
Holy Cannoli
Since you wrote:
signofcontradiction— 24/08/2011 20:11:40:
The three examples of "dissent" listed by His Eminence were requests for 1) abolishing Communion etc., etc.
Since this is what you wrote, I therefore thought that those "examples of dissent'" were the examples of dissent that you were referencing.
The cardinal (through his spokesman) equated these demands with three examples that do not …More
Since you wrote:
signofcontradiction— 24/08/2011 20:11:40:

The three examples of "dissent" listed by His Eminence were requests for 1) abolishing Communion etc., etc.

Since this is what you wrote, I therefore thought that those "examples of dissent'" were the examples of dissent that you were referencing.

The cardinal (through his spokesman) equated these demands with three examples that do not involve dissent.

This is clearer and I wish you would have written it earlier.

Nevertheless, thanks for the clarification.

🤗
irenaeus
Actually, the current Catechism is not that good....
I even ran into a blatant mistake/misrepresentation a few months ago on the apostolicity of private confession to a priest CCC-1447. Appealing to false history it stated that private confessions were a development in the 7th century, yet earlier church fathers talk about its apostolicity and enforcement. No doubt there existed other kinds of …More
Actually, the current Catechism is not that good....

I even ran into a blatant mistake/misrepresentation a few months ago on the apostolicity of private confession to a priest CCC-1447. Appealing to false history it stated that private confessions were a development in the 7th century, yet earlier church fathers talk about its apostolicity and enforcement. No doubt there existed other kinds of practices... but private confession to a priest came from the apostles.

“I have recently heard that some have unlawfully presumed to act contrary to a rule of Apostolic origin. And I hereby decree that the unlawful practice be completely stopped. It is with regard to the reception of penance. An abuse has crept in which requires that the faithful write out their individual sins in a little book which is then to be read out loud to the public. All that is necessary, however, is for the sinner to manifest his conscience in a secret confession to the priests alone…It is sufficient, therefore, to have first offered one’s confession to God, and then also to the priest, who acts as an intercessor for the transgressions of the penitents”
Pope St Leo the Great[Magna indignatione] 459 AD
signofcontradiction
Dear H.C.: Please save your ammunition for someone who actually disagrees with you.
The demands of the Pfarrer-Initiative involve dissent from Church teaching. The cardinal (through his spokesman) equated these demands with three examples that do not involve dissent. That is why I said there is a big difference between the two things, and why I believe it was careless of His Eminence (and/or his …More
Dear H.C.: Please save your ammunition for someone who actually disagrees with you.

The demands of the Pfarrer-Initiative involve dissent from Church teaching. The cardinal (through his spokesman) equated these demands with three examples that do not involve dissent. That is why I said there is a big difference between the two things, and why I believe it was careless of His Eminence (and/or his spokesman) to say that there is "no problem" with the Pfarrer-Initiative. (And "careless" was the mildest term I could think of).
Holy Cannoli
Sign:
Cardinal Schonborn is a hard core leftist.
Stop the Vienna Western Mass 2011
Evidently reading comprehension is not your strong suit.
(made bold in the article itself).
These are the demands that cause no problems: ordination of women, lay-homilies, Holy Communion for adulterers.
Abolishing Communion in the hand, etc., etc., were merely examples given by the "spokesman." They were not the …More
Sign:

Cardinal Schonborn is a hard core leftist.
Stop the Vienna Western Mass 2011

Evidently reading comprehension is not your strong suit.
(made bold in the article itself).

These are the demands that cause no problems: ordination of women, lay-homilies, Holy Communion for adulterers.

Abolishing Communion in the hand, etc., etc., were merely examples given by the "spokesman." They were not the actual demands.

🤦
irenaeus
wluckey,
My thoughts exactly!More
wluckey,

My thoughts exactly!
wluckey
I thought he was a great Cardinal, and he has done great work, but either he or his spokesman have gone senile. There are radical differences in asking for abolishing communion in the hand, or a declaration that mary is co-redemptrix, or asking to the Tridentine mass, but the opther things are already prohibited by the Church, especially the ordination of women, in the strongest toned. Pope John …More
I thought he was a great Cardinal, and he has done great work, but either he or his spokesman have gone senile. There are radical differences in asking for abolishing communion in the hand, or a declaration that mary is co-redemptrix, or asking to the Tridentine mass, but the opther things are already prohibited by the Church, especially the ordination of women, in the strongest toned. Pope John Paul II said that is totally settled.
signofcontradiction
@ H.C.: Yes, I think Cardinal Schonborn's work on the Catechism was undeniably "good," and this makes his recent remarks on "dissent" very troubling.
The three examples of "dissent" listed by His Eminence were requests for 1) abolishing Communion in the hand, 2)extending the practice of the Tridentine Rite, and 3)proclaiming the dogma of Mary Co-Redemptrix. These are truly "innocuous" requests, …More
@ H.C.: Yes, I think Cardinal Schonborn's work on the Catechism was undeniably "good," and this makes his recent remarks on "dissent" very troubling.

The three examples of "dissent" listed by His Eminence were requests for 1) abolishing Communion in the hand, 2)extending the practice of the Tridentine Rite, and 3)proclaiming the dogma of Mary Co-Redemptrix. These are truly "innocuous" requests, and they do not deserve to be called "dissent."
Alexander
Why is this article being posted? To be refuted? I am not sure I understand.
Holy Cannoli
"innocuous examples of "dissent"... (none of which involve the denial of any Church teaching).
😀 😀 😀
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APOSTOLIC LETTER
ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS
OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION
TO MEN ALONE
I. The Authoritative Status of the Teaching in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis
In the pope’s …More
"innocuous examples of "dissent"... (none of which involve the denial of any Church teaching).

😀 😀 😀
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APOSTOLIC LETTER
ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS
OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION
TO MEN ALONE

I. The Authoritative Status of the Teaching in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis

In the pope’s apostolic letter, Ordinatio sacerdotalis he wrote:

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32)
I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

From the Vatican, on May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate.

😎
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Perhaps "This good man [Cardinal Schönborn]" didn't receive the memo?

😲
signofcontradiction
This good man has done so much good, especially in his leadership in organizing and writing the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that it is astonishing to hear him make such an apparently careless statement. There is a big difference between doctrinal dissent and the three innocuous examples of "dissent" he listed (none of which involve the denial of any Church teaching).
Is it true that there is …More
This good man has done so much good, especially in his leadership in organizing and writing the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that it is astonishing to hear him make such an apparently careless statement. There is a big difference between doctrinal dissent and the three innocuous examples of "dissent" he listed (none of which involve the denial of any Church teaching).

Is it true that there is "no problem" with the Pfarrer-Initiative? The spokesman for His Eminence immediately qualified that peculiar statement by adding that the "“Call to Disobedience” DOES have a problem, first because of its polemical tone; and second because the "content of the requests" needs "further clarification."

In other words, it seems, there is "no problem" with submitting a request to the local bishop for the purpose of theological or academic discussion. This would be true in a seminary classroom, where students are exploring an idea for the first time, seeking to understand the reasons for the Church's teachings. But the "Call to Disobedience" was made by pastors, who are responsible for proclaming the Faith in its fullness. Is it really true that the content of the requests still needs to be "clarified?" Is the cardinal simply being polite, or coy, or diplomatic?

What will happen when the requests are clarified? Will those pastors finally obey, or disobey?
holyrope 3
Apostates! 🤮