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Mother Teresa: The Case for The Cause. Author Mark M Zima discusses his controversial book about Mother Teresa of Calcutta.More
Mother Teresa: The Case for The Cause.
Author Mark M Zima discusses his controversial book about Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
REVTHREEVS21
rhemes1582: There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. This is why I am Catholic, my brother. The reason, there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, on the face of this earth, is because we have the Sacraments, that Jesus Christ gave us, with His own death. They are so exact, that water,(Baptism, washing away, original sin), and blood, the Eucharist(Eating and Drinking his body and …More
rhemes1582: There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. This is why I am Catholic, my brother. The reason, there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, on the face of this earth, is because we have the Sacraments, that Jesus Christ gave us, with His own death. They are so exact, that water,(Baptism, washing away, original sin), and blood, the Eucharist(Eating and Drinking his body and blood, so we are one, with Him, in all things, available from Him), gushed from His side.....I am fully aware, rhemes 1582, the power of the Church, and the Sacraments. You haven't lost me yet. However, all this said, if a separated brother were to die. Or a Muslim, which happens, everyday, remember, Jesus Christ, is the Head of the Church, and He is in Heaven. Which means, he is at death, and that is the only way, a soul, can be saved, outside the Catholic Church, and thats by Jesus Christ himself. And only Jesus Christ, has the option to do that or not. The critera, involved there, are up to Him. There......how does that sound....lol..lol....

Ross Hoffman
Roman Catholic
Convert
REVTHREEVS21
rhemes1582:
Yes rhemes1582: I agree, I was responding to the comments of Mother Teresa, and why she didn't defend her faith......I agree, and maybe rhemes1582 there is something we both are missing, concerning Gods love and his ways. But I also agree with the Catholic model. And that is why I have become Catholic. I can see clearly, in scripture his Church, thats why I evangelize to fundamentalists …More
rhemes1582:
Yes rhemes1582: I agree, I was responding to the comments of Mother Teresa, and why she didn't defend her faith......I agree, and maybe rhemes1582 there is something we both are missing, concerning Gods love and his ways. But I also agree with the Catholic model. And that is why I have become Catholic. I can see clearly, in scripture his Church, thats why I evangelize to fundamentalists and protestants. I hope and pray, rhemes1582, that most of my friends, that are intellectuals, and others that are lukewarm, and others that are fundamentalists....will be given, the eternal life, just as I believe I will recieve eternal life, as a Catholic, and I pray, the same will be true, for Lutherans, and Buddhist, ect. ect. But for me, I was led to the Church, and I know, I have the full gospel. And I would not want to be anywhere else. I have a little more liberal, view...concerning say...a Lutheran....or say the Dali Lama.....or a devout Muslim, who are living holy lives. Only because I see St. Paul, teaching, the same about Abraham, being judged righteous because he believe God in his heart, and was deemed righteous. I view to a certain degree Rhemes1582, the Catholic Church, being the eternal city....of God....and I believe, at death, muslims, buddhist, and all...that have lived a life, worthy of eternal life. BUT, they have been deceived.....in this life. But they love God, as much as we do. I believe, God who knows the heart. Will bring them into this eternal Life. Possibly, in one of the chambers, above hell. After all....rhemes1582. We are talking a just God. I base my opinion, on the fact, I believe only those who choose evil, in this life, are hell bound. If you are decieved, and caught in a muslim or jewish, life, than you are truely a scandle to God. But he will look at how you lived your life, concerning the least of those. And if you have lived in charity, and holiness. He will judge you in that sense. Remember rhemes 1582. We are trying to determine, who God, deems, as Holy, and worthy, and who is written in the Lambs book of Life. Only God, knows the heart. For example, I know some very serious Christians, that do live a devout life outside the Catholic Church, and I watch, the Lord move in there lives, and do great things. For example, Bill Wilson, who started the world wide Alcoholics Anonomys movement. In his life story, he had a born again experience, and was delivered by his "Higher power" from alcohol. He went on, and through the 12 step process. He has helped, millions of people, overcome, through those steps, to lead a new life. Now come on rhemes 1582. Am I to believe, the God of this universe. The Almighty God of love. Is so narrow, in his salvation plan, that he won't give mercy, to those who cry out to him. Take a look at Ishmael, and Haggar. Did she not cry out, in the desert, as they were dying....and what did the Lord do? Remember rhemes 1582. Those two, are still under the promise of Abraham. That he would have a mighty nation of children. Did not the Lord, stop, and go to the rescue of Ishmael....who was born outside, the plan of God. You rhemes 1582. Underestimate the power of the Eternal Saviour, and the Father, concerning, there ability, to save on an individual basis. I have a devout, Catholic brother, who asked me one day. What would happen, if a man, was having a heart attack, next to the Priest, who was right in the middle of concecrating the host. Elevating it. What should the priest do? Should he stop!!!!! He asked me. And I told him, silly boy, what do you think? Do you think, that if he did, Jesus would come shooting down, and as he lowered the Host to help the man, having the heart attack, the Lord, would go tumbling head over heels, into the pews?????? lol...lol.....again brother, I agree with you, concerning the Church and its obviously the correct way the Lord planned for us, to come into full communion with him. But just like Ishmael, and haggar, I know also, that the Lord, will not deny, anyone, that calls out for him. So it is not hard for me, also to believe, a devout muslim, who is in need for Jesus. Might be pleasing to God the Father, by his or her.....dedication to prayers, 5 or 6 times a day. You must ask yourself, this rhemes. What if in the story of the good samaritan, it was the pope, asking Jesus, instead of a Jew. And Jesus, told the story, and he substituted, in a devout Muslim. And the devout Muslim, was the only one, that stopped, to help the injured man, the Catholic, the born again, and the fundamentalist, all walked past without helping. I like what Lucia, learned from our Lady, at Fatima. She said, anyone that converts.....I have often thought on that. She said, anyone that converts to God....meaning....God has touched there hearts. I find, that to be the highest form, of conversion, the heart. After all, it makes the most sense. But until, I die....I will stay true, to the Catholic faith. And if I get a chance, and I do it often, I give books, like St. Francis, Catholic Controversy, to mormons, and fundamentalists. And just like I have been commenting, in other areas, on this site. I totally disagree, with the fundamentalist movements....because I know, they come out of Calvanism....and calvan, was a major enemy to the Church. HOWEVER. I am not one, to look at those who were a scandal to God, by being decieved by Calvin or Luther in the same light. My parents, are Lutheran, and they have never understood, a drop of scripture. They have lived a very devout, Lutheran life....but it has had no power. There has been no wisdom. None. But I doubt, seriously, God is that vengeful, God rhemes1582. Who is waiting for them, at judgement. And my hardworking. Devout, mother, who is as honest as they come. Is not going to stand in judgement. And just because she is not Catholic. God is not going to come flying of the throne. And screech up to her, like a witch on a broom....flames coming out his mouth. And send her straight to hell. For eternity. Tormented and tortured. No my brother. I think, we need to be careful, about confusing, a God of Justice. With a God of vengeance. God is a big God. And like I told my devout Brother, I am sure, he would be capeable, of stopping, in the middle of the transubstantiation, and wait while, the Priest help the man having the heart attack. We must be careful Rhemes 1582. Deciding who God, is going to put, in his little book of life. As for me. I love the fact, he has led me to the Sacraments. And I spend alot of time, witnessing to born agains, that I can't convert, to live a life...worthy of Heaven. Living a life, that has nothing to do, with the old one, that the Lord, had called them out of. It is just much harder, rhemes 1582 for them, because they don't have the power of the Sacraments.

Peace in Jesus and Mary
Ross Hoffman
Roman Catholic
convert
2 more comments from REVTHREEVS21
REVTHREEVS21
rhemes1582: Christ made it clear, that if we do not become like little children, we will not enter the Kingdom. Christ said, we must be baptised and born from above to enter the Kingdom. Christ told the rich man, who has done everything correct, that it would be easier for a camel, to get through the eye of a needle, than get into the Kingdom. But He compromised, just a bit, when St. Peter asked …More
rhemes1582: Christ made it clear, that if we do not become like little children, we will not enter the Kingdom. Christ said, we must be baptised and born from above to enter the Kingdom. Christ told the rich man, who has done everything correct, that it would be easier for a camel, to get through the eye of a needle, than get into the Kingdom. But He compromised, just a bit, when St. Peter asked Him....But Lord....then who will be saved. And Christ, said....anything, is possible with God. We must remember brothers, that the religious Jews, were taught, a very valuable, humbling lesson, when Christ said...that the good Samaritan.....was the outcast, that stoped to help the wounded man.....The Samarians, were outcasts to the jews. The self-righteous, Jews learned, a very humbling lesson, everytime, they approached the Lord, and staked there claim, to Paradise, because, they were the Chosen People. What I am saying, brother Rhemes is this.....the protestants, balk at the Eucharist, because they have no depth, or faith, in our Lord. They don't believe, the Lord, can actually, be outside of Time, and Space. Whereas, the Lord, can easily as God, reach forward, in time, at the Last Supper, go to the Cross, and actually, change the bread into his flesh, and the wine, into his blood. But the protestants, and born again, fundamentalists....have not been enlightened to this TRUTH. SOMEHOW, they completely, miss the true interpretation of John 6. How are we to know, brother, that baptism....for a hindu, or muslim, or buddhist, that meets all the requirements, as the rich man, whom the Lord...said....BUT anything is possible with God. How are we to judge, how valuable, the soul of a Muslim, or Buddhist, or any other soul, that is generally, seeking him......think, about it....lets say, you have a soft spot for dogs. And you have a dog, that is not yours, but its outside, your fence, and it has a look of fear, in its eyes. It doesn't know you. And you don't know it. But you have the warm house. The safety. And this dog, is hurt, lonly, but full of love. And you love this little stray dog, EVEN THOUGH ITS NOT PART OF YOUR PACK, OF DOGGIES. And this dog, is whining, and cold....its getting dark. And you love, this little dog. And you have the ability, to save this little dog. And bundle it up, in your arms, and bring it inside. Now...lets take it up a notch. Would, you suffer, leave your warm house. Be mocked, and beaten. Suffer a violent death. For that little dog. Now here is the 64,000 dollar question. Would you, take that little dog, who is confused. He has been, led astray. Decieved. Would you take, that little dog, and hurt it. Would you, torment it, or allow it to be tormented. Would you, allow it to suffer and endless eternity of torment? What justice could you claim....for doing such a thing......? My brother, I don't have a clear answer, because I am a devout Catholic. BUT. I trust the Lord, who came to save the World, and not condemn it....does.......St. Paul, says something, very interesting.....and even St. Peter has to admit, his letters, are hard to understand. As a matter of fact, when St. Paul, submitted himself, to the Apostalic Church, they realize, his teaching was perfect, concerning no corrections. Now with that....St. Paul, talks about, Abraham, being circumcised in the heart. And then St. Paul, says, to the new Christians....who is justified, a Christian, under the new covenant....who is not living in Christ.....or a Jew who is not a Christian, but has been circumsized in the heart. Meaning Abraham, was found Justified, before circumcision, because he believe God in His heart. I am not very impressed at all with the Buddhist faith.....but I am impressed with the ethics, and walk, of a devout Buddhist who is trying to find, his way to holiness or enlightenment. If I had a lost dog, in my backyard, who needed me.....I would hardly turn him away. I think, we have to be careful, brother.....when we try to put, the redeemer, and saviour, Jesus Christ, to the test....on who, and how, he is going to bring someone to the Father. I believe, if necessary....the Lord, will do it, personally at death. Just as Mother Teresa is declaring.....LOVE....and that is what she preached, and more importantly, that is what she lived. She was a very....very...very....powerful, example of Jesus Christ. Probably one, of the most powerful, in our last centuries. She obviously, would not make a statement, such as I am here to help you become a better Buddhist...or Muslim...ect.....without, being very enlightened.......I don't even think, Rhemes1582 we can comprehend, the Love of God......if you look at the writings, of the visions, of blessed Anne Catherine....you will notice something, interesting. She see's all the underground, area's, as Christ, moves into Purgatory, and Limbo....ect..ect....she see's Alters down there....and she also, see's Christ, freeing, and moving through areas, that are not hell.....where she notes, she runs, into people, that hardly know Christ....but she notices...that...these souls, had a great thirst for Truth.....but apparently, were not worthy of heaven, or Hell....because at this stage, Christ, was not to Hell yet, in her great writings.....actually, it was not her writings, but a very famous, man in those days, figured out, she was a mystic, and he left everything, to record her visions. I took, the serious, of her visions, they are amazing, and gave them to my Priest, Father Flores, and he loves them. I need to get another set. I found it very fascinating, because she saw, more people, on Noah's arc....she saw, a different, heavenly being at the transfiguration. She is amazing. And if I had her books, I would refer to them again. I need to get another set. My point, brother is this......puting the Love of Jesus Christ, in one dimensional, is very difficult. I TRUST IN CHRIST. I TRUST, HE HAS FORGIVEN MY SINS, BECAUSE OF CONFESSION. I TRUST, WHEN I RECIEVE THE EUCHARIST, I AM RECIEVING HIS BODY, AND BLOOD. I TRUST HIM, WHEN I PRAY, LEAD ALL SOULS, TO HEAVEN ESPECIALLY THOSE MOST NEED OF THEY MERCY. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL. RHEMES1582: I DON'T GET IN BETWEEN HIM, AND THOSE WHO HE JUSTIFY'S, OUTSIDE OUR CHURCH. WE ARE TALKING RHEMES ABOUT A LOVING GOD, THAT IS JUST, THAT IS ETERNALLY ANCIENT. ETERNALLY ANCIENT. NEVER CREATED. WHO AM I, TO REALLY, INTERPRET, WHAT HE IS DOING, AT THE POINT OF DEATH.....TO A HOLY BUDDHIST...OR MUSLIM, THAT IS PERFECTED IN LOVE. 🤗
REVTHREEVS21
My brothers, you must remember, Mother Teresa, was the greatest example, of the good Samaritan, the world, has ever seen......don't think, for a second, that Christ, when he calls, all to His, judgement, and judges us, on WORKS......TO THE LEAST OF THEM. Don't think, brothers, that many, Buddhist, Hindu's, Muslims, ect. are not going to shine, with the example, of living, a saintly life, and pass …More
My brothers, you must remember, Mother Teresa, was the greatest example, of the good Samaritan, the world, has ever seen......don't think, for a second, that Christ, when he calls, all to His, judgement, and judges us, on WORKS......TO THE LEAST OF THEM. Don't think, brothers, that many, Buddhist, Hindu's, Muslims, ect. are not going to shine, with the example, of living, a saintly life, and pass with flying colors, in the Judgement seat....because of how they treated the least of them. What would Christ, say, and how do we know, the Master who is outside of time, and space, hasn't personally, laid at the doorsteps, of each Buddhist Monk, and that Buddhist, scouped up, our Lord...and bathed him, comforted Him, and fed Him??? Are we so foolish, to try and second guess, Mother Teresa's heart, by her words.... That my brothers, is why Christ, says, we will be judged on what we do to others in this life. And what we DO TO THE LEAST OF THEM, WE DO TO JESUS CHRIST. There is a narrow road, to the Father, and that road, leads right, to Jesus Christ, on His Throne, as Judge, and don't think, for a second, brothers, that Jesus Christ, who has the power, to appear in 4 masses a second, can't appear, to a Holy Buddahist monk, at death, and bring him, into the family. Does it truely, make sense, brothers, that Jesus would save a thief on a cross.....a man, who represented, the worst of the worst....and Christ, would let a Holy Buddhist, or Hindu, burn forever in hell. Hardly. This is truely, the wisdom, that Mother Teresa, holds. She has seen, personly, the great Love, that many Hindu's, and Buddhist has for each other. And I am sure, she admired many of them, for that Love.....Remember brothers, Jesus Christ, is a very big God.....He came to save the world, not condemn it. I think, you will find, when you get to heaven, there will be many, religions, that converted, and came to the Master...at death.......because, they had allready been perfected in Love.....Mother Teresa, is no slouch...brothers and sisters......she would not compromise, the gospel....in fact, I think, she excelled in it....teaching us.....that Love.....and Christ are one......... 🤗
Reesorville
Dear Mark,
Thank you kindly... I'm going to try to look at these myself and especially the context they were stated in before I make any conclusions about her.
There are plenty of things out there which are falsely attributed to John Paul II, John XXIII or even the second Vatican council and as far as I can tell, perhaps Mother Teresa is something similar.
In any event, I don't think it's against …More
Dear Mark,

Thank you kindly... I'm going to try to look at these myself and especially the context they were stated in before I make any conclusions about her.

There are plenty of things out there which are falsely attributed to John Paul II, John XXIII or even the second Vatican council and as far as I can tell, perhaps Mother Teresa is something similar.

In any event, I don't think it's against catholic doctrine to say that one wants non-christians to become more charitable or more loving... but if she really stated that she would be satisfied if they didn't convert and that they just became more loving, there is something which is potentially misleading for catholics who may read about her and think that therefore we are not called to convert others. I'm not willing to call her a liar/hypocrite even if she did make that statement, because I don't know if perhaps she meant something different than how she is interpreted (eg. perhaps she thought that making non-christians more loving would eventually lead them to convert to Christ...and therefore she was satisfied 'even if they didn't convert [before her eyes]').

There is a serious problem out there in the church though in this respect with the abdication of the responsibility to evangelize. I converted to catholicism myself, and it didn't cross my mind in the years before my conversion that the catholics I knew actually wanted to believe in the things they believed in. Unfortunately I don't think my former case is isolated either, and even the people who the pope talks with in his interreligious gatherings appear to be (at least some of them) in a similar situation:

'Dr. Deborah Weissman, co-chairwoman of the Interreligious Coordination Council [In Israel], said she hoped that Benedict's "ambivalence" on theological issues affecting Jews would be clarified.
The pope still had not made it absolutely clear that Jews did not need to embrace the belief that Jesus was the messiah to be redeemed, she said. ' (source: www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite)

If I can say one last thing though. I think that correcting these problems in the church is a good thing, but we need to remember to do it in love and not with ill-will. People who are in error need to be corrected as siblings in Christ and not as enemies (which I confess that I fall short of myself at times):

2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

God Bless,
mark m zima
Dear Reesorville,
There are multiple sources for those quotes but here are some sources:
1) Mother Teresa, A Simple Path, ed. Lucinda Vardey (New York: Ballantine Books, 1995), 31
ii) Nina Morgan, Mother Teresa: Saint of the Poor (Austin: Raintree Steck–Vaughn, 1998), 38–39.
iii) I believe you are thinking of the following quote:
“We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries …More
Dear Reesorville,

There are multiple sources for those quotes but here are some sources:

1) Mother Teresa, A Simple Path, ed. Lucinda Vardey (New York: Ballantine Books, 1995), 31

ii) Nina Morgan, Mother Teresa: Saint of the Poor (Austin: Raintree Steck–Vaughn, 1998), 38–39.

iii) I believe you are thinking of the following quote:

“We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries of Charity] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God’s presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men—simply better—we will be satisfied” (Mother Teresa, Life in the Spirit: Reflections, Meditations, and Prayers (San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1983), 81; Mother Teresa: The Case for The Cause, 47).

These quotes are very common in books about Mother Teresa. When I first read them I was very shocked that they were her teachings. It was not until I did further research that I discovered the source of her theology. One thing is for sure, Mother Teresa did not get those teachings from Jesus, the Saints, or Vatican II.
CathPresbyter
>>If you knew anything about me then you would know that thinking I >>value the world's opinion would have to be a gross >>mischaracterization.
Yet you support one who sought acclaim of the world, you even mention how she made such progress in the secular world. (Because they loved her?)
>>I of course recognize that salvation can only be found in Jesus, but >>when one offers that message to someone …More
>>If you knew anything about me then you would know that thinking I >>value the world's opinion would have to be a gross >>mischaracterization.

Yet you support one who sought acclaim of the world, you even mention how she made such progress in the secular world. (Because they loved her?)

>>I of course recognize that salvation can only be found in Jesus, but >>when one offers that message to someone and they do not accept >>it, continuing to do so can often cause the opposite effect.

You are arguing in circles. She by policy did not teach the faith, she never had a chance to test its effect, because there was no cause from which an effect could occur. So this is not her position.

>> In my personal experience, many times people can be turned off >>completely from being constantly bombarded with the message of >>Christ once they have already refused. I believe my part is done and >>the rest is up to the Holy Spirit for them to become open.

But it has to be proclaimed ONCE.. She never proclaimed it, she left them in the darkness of paganism.

>>I wont just wipe the dust from my sandals as scripture recounts as >>they are my friends and family and I dont believe that is what Christ >>wants of me.

Sad the Gospel came to bring division, even dividing families, Son from Father.... He who puts his hands to the plow and looks back IS UNWORTHY.. It is not about having friends, or relatives who like you, it is ABOUT JESUS...

>>I believe He would prefer I be an example to these people.

Of what compromise, of denial of the faith by not living by it, which requires witness. Please don't tell me your spiritual director has told you to do this, if so GET A NEW ONE...

>>It may have said that in scripture, but that was a time that the faith >>was first being spread.

And how conviently you prescend scripture, you cut it with your liberal category of isegesis. The proclamation of the gospel is not an option. And NOW MORE THAN EVER, we need to re-evangelize. So because we are not in the apostolic era we don't follow the example, and commission? Have you ever studied scripture? Do you understand the rules to exegesis? You waive scriptures that are not particular to the time, with such ease saying we are in a different time. The whole world is not Christian, so I think you can say the great commission is in effect. All the saints up until the 19th century thought so. What makes modern man so special that we don't need to preach to them. This is Rhanerism, they are anomyous Christians, so since they are there, lets just leave them where they are. Do you understand the consequences IF YOU ARE WRONG? You will have to answer for their lives. We have totally dismantled our missionary outreach in the church, assuming they are saved BY THEIR IGNORANCE. Do you know how cruel this is, if they are not? Play on exceptions and your bed is not so sure. You want to gamble with people's lives? ETERNAL LIVES?

>>Most know of Christ today and people have free will to except or >>reject.

But what Christ do they know about? There are different christs. There is the Christ of the Hindus, who is equal to Krisna. (Go to a SRF you will find Jesus next to P. Yoganata.) Is it the christ of the secular world, A good teacher. Is it the christ of the liberals where there is the Jesus of the gospels and the Jesus of History, thanks to Bultmann. Is it the christ of Gnostacism who frees himself of his physicality? Is it the christ of Islam who never died on the cross, and had Judas in his stead? I find classic ignorance of the Gospels, or even Christian doctrine. I find Methodists who know nothing of Wesley and his method. Calvinsist who believe in free will, and no predestination. Anglicans who wannt to worship like presbyterians. AND CATHOLICS WHO ARE CONGREGATIONAL. Do they really know about Jesus? Who says I am the way truth and the life, no one comes to the father, except through me? What Jesus do they know, Mother Teresas Jesus who lets them stay in their false systems?

>>God doesnt take it away so neither will I.

You huffed, you puffed and blew the straw man over. I never pushed for removing their free will. I just asked why does this woman not give them a chance to hear the gospel? In what way does she represent Jesus when she does not stand with him? We never said to force, we just want Christians to proclaim Christ.

>> its about showing respect for the person.

And how do you expect to respect a person, that you don't even warn of the danger in front of them, so they can love you. You remind me of the liberal priests I know. It is all about them, love me, tell me how open minded I am! You are not showing respect to someone, when you are pandering to their acclaim, and acceptance.

>>I dont expect the pope to have a meeting with Jewish and Muslim >>leaders and berate them for following the wrong faith.

So Benedict should not have told the Jews: Christ is for you?

>>Its about respect at a basic level.

The basic level their soul, which her theology denies them.

Why didn't her superiors or even the pope himself correct her of her blantant mistakes?

Why is Notre Dame having Obama? Why did the tabernacle get removed so Budda could be put on the altar at Assissi. Why did Pope Honorious get away with what he did? Why did Luther get away with his revolt for so many years before they condemned him? Why do women religious remove their habbits when the vatican says wear distinctive garb? Why do priests deny the faith from the altar? Why did Fr. Koss get away with abusing so many people when there was a paper trail so long that when the bishop denied knowledge he was given once chance to retract before he was held for purgery? Why did Igantius Loyola get persacuted under the inquisition? Why did Padre Pio get put under disicipline. Why was Joan of Arc burned by religous authorities? Where do I stop. The list of injustices can go on and one.

Why. HUMAN SIN... Some injustices take decaded to reverse, sometimes hundreds of years, some are never fixed in this life. Do you expect perfect justice in the church? NO. The church is not perfect in her juridic rulings, she has never claimed such a thing. And to say she got away with it so it is alright, would be like saying to a victim of abuse today, look this guy has beat numerous claims, don't accuse him, he could not have done it, he has been going for 20 years. A hickup of time in God's measurement does not justify an action, nor does someone this side of heaven getting away with something. Leave those to the universal judgement.

>>Why now when she's no longer here to answer for herself or to >>possible give her an opportunity to explain the context of things she >>said?

The same thing could be said of Origin. Why was it so fun to condemn him since he could not respond. His words and actions speak for themselves. The church needs a devil's avocate and he needs to know all to have a canonization proccess, this book is this.

OH, and a historical note. Mark was critical of her when she was alive. I remember he and I having numerous discussions then. (He was just worried about possible religious life, and was involved in that years of discernment you spoke about in your other post.

I remember one conversation he and I had in Grants Pass Oregon. (Actually I think more Merlin, but I did not have a GPS then, they were not common.) Ad Orville's house. When I gave a small defense of her, and he pointed out how I was defending 'my patron saint' which I reminded him I had no devotion to her, and didn't know enough to argue. I think this would have been in the mid 90's. I mean I went off to seminary in like 95, and he had left a few years before that to the east coast, so maybe 92-92, SHE WAS ALIVE THEN.

>>Its the place solely for the Church, which I think has already taken >>place.

NO IT HAS NOT. The proccess is not finished. Everything must come out for canonization to occur. Look at Poor Escriva, his supposed anti-semitic statements came out. Pius' supposes lack of action on the holocaust. Terese of Liseux's little fugue's (Temper tantrums.) The problem she had with the other nun in the convent. Padre Pio's strong words were carefully examined, as well as the status of stigmata after death. These things are open, saints lives are not secret. THIS IS WHY THEY ARE RAISED TO THE ALTAR. For public veneration, so their actions are public. ;-)

>> where she would then either be killed or removed.

But true heroic sanctity does not run away from being killed or removed, you speak the truth, and have faith in God's vindication, maybe not ever in this life. Could you imagine Padre Pio when asked aobut the nice beds by the Cardinal saying to himself, Oh I will keep my mouth shut, he is a Cardinal, he could have me removed from the hopsital, he could have my faculties pulled to say mass. NO HE SPOKE OUT... That is what saints do. Mother had no problem speaking out about the Car Paul VI gave her.

>>By staying and respecting the people, she may have opened the >>possibilities of having someone there to exemplify to these people >>who this Christ was that she followed.

How do you exemplify by being nothing like. Jesus spoke out all the time. He called the pharisees hippocrits, whited seplucures, blind guides, turned over the tables. He could have just been friendly, and not made waves, but he challenged them. What about the woman at the well? "Salvation is from the Jews" "You worship what you do not understand" What about the syropheonocian woman. "It is not meat to take food from the master's table and give it to the dogs."

>>My contention is there can possibly be varied ways of bringing Christ >>to people which I think exists because of the current faith situation >>in the world today.

Nice contention, but, but, but, but......

WHAT IS SO DIFFERENT? There was paganism then, there is paganism now. There was hostility to the gospel then, there is hostility to the gospel now. There were martyrs then, there are martyrs now.

I could see some kind of argument in Christendom, where the …
CathPresbyter
StChadwick
>>But you are also downplaying the conversions Mother did bring >>about by living the way that she did.
Conversion to what, universalism? Look I am not saying she is an evil woman, but her theology was off. Saints are examples of the faith, and people will use her as exemplars of the faith, therefore she should not be cannonized.
>> I also contend comparing people of today to times of …More
StChadwick
>>But you are also downplaying the conversions Mother did bring >>about by living the way that she did.

Conversion to what, universalism? Look I am not saying she is an evil woman, but her theology was off. Saints are examples of the faith, and people will use her as exemplars of the faith, therefore she should not be cannonized.

>> I also contend comparing people of today to times of the past also >>doesnt make someone wrong.

The comparason of any person needs to be against the faith, and Saints are examples of the faith. The Catholic faith infallibly says she is wrong!!!

>>This Mother Teresa has pervaded through the secular like no else

Could this be, because her hybred gospel was secularized?

>>and has been a person who saw Jesus in everyone she met,

How can you see Jesus in a person and not share His love with them? Is it loving to leave them in a religious system that leads to damnation and run her thology on an exception as opposed to the rule Jesus laid down? Hard cases make for bad law, the same with theology. Why leave them with the possibility for salvation, when Christianity is the way to salvation?

>>without feeling the need to first preach with words like an apologist.

So you don't want earnestly content for the faith once and for all delivered unto the saints? You don't want to give people the answer for the hope that lies within.

>>I would suspect that finding the dying in the streets isnt a primary >>occurence missionaries often find in their everyday work.

Have you ever read the lives of the saints? They took care of the poor, they founded hospitals, orphanages, schools for boys, and took on kings for injustices in their society. Both go together, you cannot separate them in some kind of rationalistic game. You teach the faith, you live the faith. You deny one, or the other you are not living Christianity.

>>I believe that if she had preached the exact way some wanted her >>to, no way could she have been as successful as she ended up >>being.

The way she wanted? It isn't about what I want, or what she wants. A Christians heart should held captive to the Gospel, the WHOLE GOSPEL. You cannot truncate any of it. It was not like the looked the other way on other's sin, but she encouraged them to sin. Worshipping foreign gods is a sin, they are demons, making a hindu a better hindu is making a devil worshipper a better devil worshipper. YOU DO NOT ENCOURAGE THIS.

>>That is a larger testament of who she was and something not solely >>accomplished on her own but from above.

Are you blaming her compromise on God? Please don't!!

>> Perhaps that is what her calling was and not that of a martyr, no >>matter what her initial testimony may have been to the contrary.

So her calling was not to witness to the orthodox faith, not to witness martyrese for the faith?

>> Deciphering ones call within a call often takes time.

And orthodoxy, living in hetrodoxy is not a place to discern.

>> so just in looking at her life, instead of just taking individual quotes >>of hers and implying that this somehow undoes who she was.

B ut the only things we have to judge are words, and actions, a man cannot judge intention, unless told it. (Any good confessor will tell you this.) Her words are hetrodox, her actions were weak on the Gospel, so she was a good social worker, NOT A SAINT.

>> This world has much more pressing issues today than disproving >>Mother Teresa's sainthood,

BUT THIS IS WHERE YOU ARE WRONG. Mark is pointing out a dangerous angle in theology, and how it leads to conclusions. Mother Teresa is an example of what these ideas lead to. We cannot ever have true reform until we clean up the theology. So his call is a call to reform the church. Look get a good Dominican who knows his stuff, like Fr. Muladay ask him about Rhaner, he will go off on his theology of Grace. Press him or another well trained DominicanAnd next thing you know they will go off on Cardinal Kajaten. Why because his ideas led to Americanism, which led to DuLubac, and Rhaners flaws in grace. This had led to the dirth of theology we live in today. So you have to trace cancer to its cause. Mother Teresa is not the original cause, but her theology threatens to spread this univeralism in Catholicism.

>>but people are more than welcomed to try, but I think its futile,

Futile to attack error, I pray not. Saints are not made because they are a cult of personality, to quote the title for a heavy Metal song of the 80's. It is not about how much we feel toward them, feeling is not truth. It is not about only doing good works. Sainthood is being an example of the faith, it is more than saying they made it to heaven, but it is saying that after their conversion they strived to a heroic end, and that this striving can be emulated by others. DO WE WANT A CHURCH FULL OF CATHOLICS DOING, WITHOUT THE FAITH. Salvation by social justice? This is the problems many bishops today have, they speak to immigration, but ignore the murder of the unborn. (Something thank God Mother Teresa got right.) We cannot isolate these two ends, if we do our entire theology blows apart. (AND HAS over the last 40 years.)

as I know it is only a matter of time before it comes to fruition.
stchadwick
CathPresbyter,
If you knew anything about me then you would know that thinking I value the world's opinion would have to be a gross mischaracterization. I of course recognize that salvation can only be found in Jesus, but when one offers that message to someone and they do not accept it, continuing to do so can often cause the opposite effect. In my personal experience, many times people can be …More
CathPresbyter,

If you knew anything about me then you would know that thinking I value the world's opinion would have to be a gross mischaracterization. I of course recognize that salvation can only be found in Jesus, but when one offers that message to someone and they do not accept it, continuing to do so can often cause the opposite effect. In my personal experience, many times people can be turned off completely from being constantly bombarded with the message of Christ once they have already refused. I believe my part is done and the rest is up to the Holy Spirit for them to become open. I wont just wipe the dust from my sandals as scripture recounts as they are my friends and family and I dont believe that is what Christ wants of me. I believe He would prefer I be an example to these people. It may have said that in scripture, but that was a time that the faith was first being spread. Most know of Christ today and people have free will to except or reject. God doesnt take it away so neither will I. Its not about me telling these people that their actions are good being noncatholics, its about showing respect for the person. I dont expect the pope to have a meeting with Jewish and Muslim leaders and berate them for following the wrong faith. Its about respect at a basic level.

The things that Mother is being criticized for doing are things that she did or said during her lifetime. If these things were so unbecoming of, not just a saint, but even a Catholic, why didn't her superiors or even the pope himself correct her of her blantant mistakes? Why now when she's no longer here to answer for herself or to possible give her an opportunity to explain the context of things she said? This may have been a major reason she never intended a lot of her struggles to ever become common knowledge? Its the place solely for the Church, which I think has already taken place.

You asked why didnt she truly love them and try to bring them to Jesus, I would say that I believe she did but even in the aspect of hers that are being questioned, she may have known that doing so directly would make her not acceptable among the people, where she would then either be killed or removed. By staying and respecting the people, she may have opened the possibilities of having someone there to exemplify to these people who this Christ was that she followed. My contention is there can possibly be varied ways of bringing Christ to people which I think exists because of the current faith situation in the world today. No, it isnt like the times of past Saints, but I dont believe this necessarily disqualifies her. I simply believe that the Church exhausted their investigation prior to her beatification and if any of this was a concern, things would have been stymied from the outset. This leads me to believe that there is nothing new which the Church wasnt already aware of or brought up by the devil's advocate at her beatification cause.

Can you show me something which explicitly states that other faiths cannot be saved?

I saw a clip of a nun (forgot her name) who runs schools in India for many of the children who live on the streets. And in the video she remarked that many of the children in her school are often expert thieves by the age of 9. She then said that this is something she can't take away from them as its their only source for survival. I found it weird coming from a nun of the faith, but with this being in direct contradiction to the Commandments, does this at all open up any subjective area of how one saint may have dealt with a situation compared to another?

I see the point Mark and you have made in wanting to come to the truth of Mother's life. I think its a thought provoking topic, I just don't think any of these questions will ultimately merit anything to stop her canonization. I am curious though - if the Church declares her a saint, will each of you still believe it as an incorrect pronouncement or will you believe it to be a case that she must have since completed her purgatory?
Reesorville
Dear Mark,
These quotes specifically are what I'm interested in:
i)“I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic” (Mother Teresa: The Case for The Cause, 29).
ii)“I do convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu, a better Catholic, Muslim, Jain, or Buddhist” (Mother Teresa: The Case for The Cause, 4).
iii) And …
More
Dear Mark,

These quotes specifically are what I'm interested in:

i)“I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic” (Mother Teresa: The Case for The Cause, 29).

ii)“I do convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu, a better Catholic, Muslim, Jain, or Buddhist” (Mother Teresa: The Case for The Cause, 4).

iii) And there was another quote you made somewhere (it may have been in the other video) about Mother Teresa saying that she was satisfied that people didn't convert.

Where and when did she say these things? You quote your own book in the above quotations, but I'm assuming your book has a source of its own... Where can I find that source?

God Bless,
mark m zima
Dear stchadwick,
As you see, there are priests who believe Mother Teresa is an unworthy candidate for canonization. If you read my book, and I hope you do, you will read a truly objective presentation of Mother Teresa’s virtues and vices. I promise you that you could hate everything I say in the book and still believe you received your money’s worth in research.
CathPresbyter has thoroughly answered …More
Dear stchadwick,

As you see, there are priests who believe Mother Teresa is an unworthy candidate for canonization. If you read my book, and I hope you do, you will read a truly objective presentation of Mother Teresa’s virtues and vices. I promise you that you could hate everything I say in the book and still believe you received your money’s worth in research.

CathPresbyter has thoroughly answered your posts but I want to make a couple of comments.

I am so glad that you care enough about this subject to ask questions and make comments. However, there is a disturbing trend I see in your posts. You seem to have a hermeneutic of discontinuity—that was then this is now. In your first posts you said:

“One probably wont be as successful preaching, like in centuries past, by going to a foreign land of nonchristians as the apostles did.”

Now you say:

“Sure, there were many popes of the early centuries that would have also uttered similarly to Pope Eugene - Innocent III and Boniface VIII for example. But that was largely my point is saying we live in a different world today with the ushering in and monumental spread of noncatholic christianity. Would those same popes have ever agreed that the Holy Spirit could ever have existed in other christian churches apart from Rome? Of course not, but that is what She believes today. Not because sin has changed, but because the subjectivity of sin and how it relates to mankind has.”

Have you ever reflected on the connection between the Gospel and its proclamation? The two are not divorced. Are you sure that the reason why your friends are not converting has nothing to do with the message and manner you bring them? Catholicism is not the evolving faith. It is “the faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). We do not ask the world what message they want to hear from us, but we proclaim the news to them that is good. If you are going to evangelize people you must have the evangel. Real conversion is impossible without the Gospel.

”I understand that beatifications arent readily accepted as an infallible action, but what exactly do you expect? Rome to retract her beatification?”

I address this objection in chapter one. Rome can do two things. It is possible for Rome to retract her beatification. If it is not infallible, why is it impossible? According to you, Rome changed infallible articles of the faith. Why can’t Rome change a non-infallible decision? The other possibility is for Rome to just drop her cause. It has been done for others, it can be done for Mother Teresa.

“To retract the miracle that was attributed to her cause? I'm sure you are more aware than I of the process Rome undertakes in validating these miracles starting with beatifactions.”

I have a whole chapter in my book on the “miracle.” I will be frank, there was no miracle. Rome, and this embarrassing for it is another scandal, violated her own laws to give Mother Teresa the miracle falsely so-called. No miracle, no beatification—we have cause.

“I'm just rather certain that there's nothing in your book that wasn't also brought up by the devil's advocator at her cause for beatification. And even with those questions, the Church still preceded quickly to beatify her. If you don't like some thing's she said, then perhaps she violated her order's mission statement, but that doesnt necessarily make someone unsaint worthy. Neither of us has walked a day in her life in knowing the difficulties she had spiritually or the labors she endured in spite of, but we can feel secure that the church will soon recognize her as a saint.”

I am not going to rewrite my book here to answer all your objections. Your natural desire to believe the hierarchy is commendable, but you faith is misplaced. What part of the following quote do you think they missed?

“I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic” (Mother Teresa: The Case for The Cause, 29).

If you want to be a true follower of Mother Teresa, help your unbelieving friends become better followers of whatever faith they hold. Evangelism is an art but this is not the way to go about it. Also, do you see the inherent danger in holding that the above words as the words of a “Saint”?

"There has also been a lot of attacks against John Paul II in things he also supposedly did and allowed during his pontificate, as I would expect there to be much more for people to pick apart about such a long tenured pope. I just hope you don't have any thoughts on making him the object of your next book?”

Interesting comment. I was approached by Catholics who wanted me to write a book on Pope John Paul II. There are no plans at present. Still, I had no plans to write book on Mother Teresa and would have rather left the matter along but Rome’s insanity on her cause forced my hand to write. Pray for both Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul II, and Rome.

I have one last question:

If a missionary is asked by unbelievers if they had come to their country to convert them, do you believe that it is treason for that missionary to tell them that they had come to convert them to be a better whatever they are? Forget Mother Teresa for a moment, is the following quote Catholic?

“I do convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu, a better Catholic, Muslim, Jain, or Buddhist” (Mother Teresa: The Case for The Cause, 4).
mark m zima
Dear Reesorville,
I am cannot provide a source that Mother Teresa was not interested in converting non-Christians. If I did, I would be fabricating the source and slandering her. She was interesting in converting non-Christians to her faith, and she believed that faith to be Catholicism. She held many Catholic beliefs; and she held many non-Catholic beliefs, beliefs gravely offensive and injurious …More
Dear Reesorville,

I am cannot provide a source that Mother Teresa was not interested in converting non-Christians. If I did, I would be fabricating the source and slandering her. She was interesting in converting non-Christians to her faith, and she believed that faith to be Catholicism. She held many Catholic beliefs; and she held many non-Catholic beliefs, beliefs gravely offensive and injurious to the very heart of Christianity. What would happen if a non-Catholic were to desire to become a “Catholic” because they believed Mother Teresa’s non-Catholic beliefs were teachings of the faith? Would they be converts? No, they would not be converts. I address this point in my book.

Is there a particular quote that I have cited here that you want the source? You can look over my book on amazon.com.
stchadwick
As for how I preach to my friends, I've shared Christ with them, but they have rejected Him. There could be many reason they choose to do so, religious bias, family, etc. For me, I share and its up to them with the help of the Holy Spirit to accept Him. You really have to have a feel for the people you are dealing with to know how far to "push" so to speak. If I'm just going to berate them about …More
As for how I preach to my friends, I've shared Christ with them, but they have rejected Him. There could be many reason they choose to do so, religious bias, family, etc. For me, I share and its up to them with the help of the Holy Spirit to accept Him. You really have to have a feel for the people you are dealing with to know how far to "push" so to speak. If I'm just going to berate them about Christ continuously then it would defeat the purpose of befriending them in light of their choice to reject. Chances are, I will be the only person of Christ they will ever affiliate with, so one never knows, because of the changing dynamic of faith today, what the best method of preaching always is to each individual situation.
stchadwick
Cath,
But you are also downplaying the conversions Mother did bring about by living the way that she did. Perhaps she wasnt St Francis or St Thomas, but she, you or I arent intended to be them. We are called to be saints in our own right. Examples of past saints and popes continuously are brought up and there is nothing necessarily wrong about how they lived, but I also contend comparing people of …More
Cath,

But you are also downplaying the conversions Mother did bring about by living the way that she did. Perhaps she wasnt St Francis or St Thomas, but she, you or I arent intended to be them. We are called to be saints in our own right. Examples of past saints and popes continuously are brought up and there is nothing necessarily wrong about how they lived, but I also contend comparing people of today to times of the past also doesnt make someone wrong. This Mother Teresa has pervaded through the secular like no else and has been a person who saw Jesus in everyone she met, without feeling the need to first preach with words like an apologist. I would suspect that finding the dying in the streets isnt a primary occurence missionaries often find in their everyday work. I believe that if she had preached the exact way some wanted her to, no way could she have been as successful as she ended up being. That is a larger testament of who she was and something not solely accomplished on her own but from above. Perhaps that is what her calling was and not that of a martyr, no matter what her initial testimony may have been to the contrary. Deciphering ones call within a call often takes time. She lived her calling the way she understood it. From where I sit, I think she was very successful in doing so just in looking at her life, instead of just taking individual quotes of hers and implying that this somehow undoes who she was. This world has much more pressing issues today than disproving Mother Teresa's sainthood, but people are more than welcomed to try, but I think its futile, as I know it is only a matter of time before it comes to fruition.
CathPresbyter
>>But that was largely my point is saying we live in a different world >>today
And the apostles were going out into a world where Christianity already existed? Did Paul bend to Alexander the coppersmith? Did he allow himself to be worshipped? Did he not tell the Athenians they are supersticious? They were in a much worse condition than we are today, yet they still proclaimed the Gospel.
>> Not …More
>>But that was largely my point is saying we live in a different world >>today

And the apostles were going out into a world where Christianity already existed? Did Paul bend to Alexander the coppersmith? Did he allow himself to be worshipped? Did he not tell the Athenians they are supersticious? They were in a much worse condition than we are today, yet they still proclaimed the Gospel.

>> Not because sin has changed, but because the subjectivity of sin >>and how it relates to mankind has.

"Subjectivity of Sin" Are you refering to the person's disposition? Ignorance may lower their culpability, but it stil is objectively wrong, and Jesus came to save us from it.

>>I doubt I would have any friends of other faiths.

What is more important being liked by them, or being a true friend, and wanting what is best for them, Salvation? Stop valuing the world's estimation, and value the Gospel over the world! God will open doors you cannot imagine if you JUST LET HIM!!

>>I wouldnt get anywhere if all I did was go around preaching in a >>similar fashion than what would have been mandated by the Church >>in the 13th century.

Yet St. Thomas did it then, and he is the angelic doctor.

>>Times have changed and there are other methods that I find work >>better.

Then when are they going to work? I have never seen these methods produce any converts, because you tell them they are good where they are, according to Our Gospel, and their system tells them they must stay in theirs, so if they stay in theirs they cover both systems. Yet our system does not say they are fine in theirs, don't built theology on the excpetion.

>>Every faith system out there today believes they are the truth, so >>how would that work out if we all just preached away without >>showing respect for what people are first?

But in the first place they are not true, we are!!! In the second place we have the Holy Spirit, just Him do His Job. In the third place isn't it repectful to save a person from a fire, as opposed to letting them burn?

>>Without that respect initially, I've found I don't get very far with >>them, even friendship-wise, let alone having an opportunity to >>convert them to Christ's true Church.

I got a great idea, stop trying to be their friend, and build respect, be a Christian proclaim the Gospel and if they are truth seekers the Holy Spirit will open their heart, if not wipe the dust from your sandles and move on.
CathPresbyter
>> it just wasnt a very plausible thing for her to be able to do.
Not plausable to preach the gospel?
>>Her ammo may have then been like St Francis and to preach and >>sometimes use words.
But was St. Francis' evangelization making Hindus better Hindus? (If such a thing would be wanted.) So when he met Saladin, St. Francis did not seek a battle between allah the moon goddess worshipped by moslems …More
>> it just wasnt a very plausible thing for her to be able to do.

Not plausable to preach the gospel?

>>Her ammo may have then been like St Francis and to preach and >>sometimes use words.

But was St. Francis' evangelization making Hindus better Hindus? (If such a thing would be wanted.) So when he met Saladin, St. Francis did not seek a battle between allah the moon goddess worshipped by moslems and the true God of the universe? He did challenge to walk through fire itself in challenge against muftis?

>>If she had continued to try and convert people, I believe she would >>have eventually been martyred and that may not have been her >>calling,

Martyr comes from the word in greek Myrtryese which is a witness. So you are saying her call was not to witness to Jesus by laying down her life, but in silence. Silence implies concent. Isn't it amazing how the great saints were not interested in what great things they could do, so they did little by little, not selling out, but her calling was to be silent to do great things. A billion billion fed and lost to hell, is not worth 1 saved. The Good shepherd risks all for his sheep, seems she risked nothing for all the people she could feed. "What doth it profit a man, to gain the entire world, and suffer the loss of his soul." But her price was a few people fed for a day?

>>but rather in simplicity to see Jesus in everyone she saw, especially >>in the lowest and the forgotten.

And why not love them, truly love them, and try to bring them Jesus, or better said bring them to Jesus, to fill the yearning in all men's hearts.

>>Her understanding of her mission may have been better understood >>once she saw the changing dynamic of how one should share ones >>faith with another because of the pluralistic world we live in.

And what faith was this she shared? I will feed you, the faith of a social worker?

>>She shared Christ by an example of her actions, the rest was up to >>the Holy Spirit

So you are saying she did this on her own, and then left the rest up to God. If she had co-operated with the Holy Spirit, then His grace would have Preceded accompanied and followed her work, and it would have been meritorious. Our righteousness are dirty rags, you cannot buy God. The only way works are pleasing to God are done in Grace, not outside of grace.

>>That changing dynamic I alluded to has more to do with having to >>change how we may be the most successful in getting conversions.

Yet Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, and you want me to follow 'a changing dynamic?' Lets just follow the Gospel, and leaving changing dynamics to Hereclitus, and situationalists.

>>One probably wont be as successful preaching, like in centuries past, >>by going to a foreign land of nonchristians as the apostles did.

How about we try it, and see what happens. The protestants seem to be pretty successful by putting proclamation with good works.

>>But because of a changing demographic of so many varied belief >>systems, that is why I believe one has to take a different approach >>to be the most successful in obtaining conversions, especially in >>countries comprised mainly of nonchristians.

Lets let the words of Mother Teresa answer this: "We are not called to success we are called to fedility"

>>We dont do the converting, the Holy Spirit does.

Yet St. Paul asks us how is one not converted unless he hear, and how does one hear unless one proclaims. Why did Jesus send the apostles out, why just not let the Holy Spirit do it? Holy Spirit works through the Church.

>>I believe this is a major factor in why the Church teaches that other >>faiths may be saved.

Other faiths may be saved? Can you show me that De Fide? Show me a solemn conciliar statement making such a statement?

Does Jesus not say "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to Father except through me?" Does allah save? Does Krisna save? Does Budda save? You gotta read JPII's Dominus Isus, these christ like persons do not save according to John Paul II. So why leave people with good when the better has arrived?
One more comment from CathPresbyter
CathPresbyter
For some reason Stchadwick since my original post to your first message seems to have not made it on gloria TV I wanted to renote some things I have mentioned before.
>>how realistic is it that Mother Teresa would go to a country with so >>many Hindus and expect to make them better Catholics?
This is an interesting play on words, since the majority are Hindu it would be nonsense to "Make them better …More
For some reason Stchadwick since my original post to your first message seems to have not made it on gloria TV I wanted to renote some things I have mentioned before.

>>how realistic is it that Mother Teresa would go to a country with so >>many Hindus and expect to make them better Catholics?

This is an interesting play on words, since the majority are Hindu it would be nonsense to "Make them better Catholics." Yet in metaphysics we were taught that being is qualatitive superior IE better. So the word play fails, to intend to make one a Catholic is to make them better Catholics, and wasn't that the intention of St. Thomas when he went to India, or St. Francis Xavier? Why does she not have to do a spiritual work of mercy, that the apostle and an evangelist thought they had to do?

>>Our world is comprised of a different dynamic today and one has to >>live out and share their beliefs differently than in times of the past.

Oh the 'new evangelization' eh? As opposed to having a 'new and improved Christianity' lets just use new methods (Ie MAss Media)to express the same faith. What has this 'new evangelization' gotten us in the last 20 years, our pews are getting empty.

>>I don't believe Mother's first thoughts in going to India was to >>convert all those nonbelievers;

So she is immune from the great commission? Since when does orthopraxy make one immune from orthodoxy?

>>rather she mainly recognized a call that had more to do with the >>many poor and miserable souls that were dying in the street >>completely alone.

A noble worldly value, laudable, and on the natural level I hold it up too, feeding the poor, saving the enviorment, helping the Dog Wisperer, but how do these acts qualify one for Sainthood? So she is a good social worker, not a saint according to your crieria?

>>That is what she was about and has a lot less to do with having a >>religious agenda.

Thank you for proving my point, she was a good woman on a natural level, but not a saint. But why does she not have a religious agenda? Didn't she found a religious community? Wasn't she a religous under canon law? So why does she not have 'a religious agenda'? What allows her to compartmentalize her faith? I mean I am a diocesan priest, so I could do this much more than she could, I am a secular person, she is religous. I don't take poverty, she did. My collar is secular wear, hence the alb covers it, but yet I still, a secular proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. Why not a religious?

>>Saints of the past were often criticized in their lifetimes for some >>things they did, so this isnt as unprecedented as you assume.

Of course they were critizised, but critizised because their entire agenda was secularism? Usually they were attacked because they were unbending on the gospel, and the clergy who had sold out to the world and those people who are in the world found them unbending or rigid.

So your point seems to be she is just a secular good person, but not fitting to being raised to the altar, being an example of Christian faith. (She seems to be a good example of secular alturism.)
Reesorville
Hi Mark,
Is it possible that you could provide the source for those quotations about her having said that she was not interested in converting non-christians?
God Bless,More
Hi Mark,

Is it possible that you could provide the source for those quotations about her having said that she was not interested in converting non-christians?

God Bless,
stchadwick
Sure, there were many popes of the early centuries that would have also uttered similarly to Pope Eugene - Innocent III and Boniface VIII for example. But that was largely my point is saying we live in a different world today with the ushering in and monumental spread of noncatholic christianity. Would those same popes have ever agreed that the Holy Spirit could ever have existed in other christian …More
Sure, there were many popes of the early centuries that would have also uttered similarly to Pope Eugene - Innocent III and Boniface VIII for example. But that was largely my point is saying we live in a different world today with the ushering in and monumental spread of noncatholic christianity. Would those same popes have ever agreed that the Holy Spirit could ever have existed in other christian churches apart from Rome? Of course not, but that is what She believes today. Not because sin has changed, but because the subjectivity of sin and how it relates to mankind has.

I understand that beatifications arent readily accepted as an infallible action, but what exactly do you expect? Rome to retract her beatification? To retract the miracle that was attributed to her cause? I'm sure you are more aware than I of the process Rome undertakes in validating these miracles starting with beatifactions. I did not intend to downplay your knowledge of this subject, as I'm sure you have done a lot of investigating. I'm just rather certain that there's nothing in your book that wasn't also brought up by the devil's advocator at her cause for beatification. And even with those questions, the Church still preceded quickly to beatify her. If you don't like some thing's she said, then perhaps she violated her order's mission statement, but that doesnt necessarily make someone unsaint worthy. Neither of us has walked a day in her life in knowing the difficulties she had spiritually or the labors she endured in spite of, but we can feel secure that the church will soon recognize her as a saint.

In learning of Mother's struggles throughout her life, she has become an example to me more than before, as I previously thought everything just came easy to her. Now that I know all she did in her life with such immense struggles, she now seems more real to me as someone I can relate to.

In those I would like to show Christ to, I find limited opportunities to convert them. If I did such a thing in a blatant fashion, I doubt I would have any friends of other faiths. They know what I believe and often comment on my Christ-like example, but in my case, and I assert possibly in Mother's, that may have been what she faced in such a country? Same with apologetics, I wouldnt get anywhere if all I did was go around preaching in a similar fashion than what would have been mandated by the Church in the 13th century. Times have changed and there are other methods that I find work better. Every faith system out there today believes they are the truth, so how would that work out if we all just preached away without showing respect for what people are first? Without that respect initially, I've found I don't get very far with them, even friendship-wise, let alone having an opportunity to convert them to Christ's true Church.

There has also been a lot of attacks against John Paul II in things he also supposedly did and allowed during his pontificate, as I would expect there to be much more for people to pick apart about such a long tenured pope. I just hope you don't have any thoughts on making him the object of your next book?