Trady, I appreciate the time you have taken to address my earlier post with photographs and textual information regarding the “Spirit of Assisi” and its fruits. Having accessed the information supplied, I am left with an overall feeling of sadness and grave concern for the church that I love. I sadly do not have the time or the theology to dive into a deep debate on the “Vetus Ordo versus Novus Ordo” issue but do wish to address the words "JP2 allowed the Dalai Lama to put a Buddha statue on top of the tabernacle to be worshipped above God in God’s own House". Having undertaken some research, the church in Assisi alluded to in the preceding sentence is “Della Chiesa Benedettina di San Pietro”. Given the choir functions of this Benedictine church, the Blessed Sacrament is reserved in "La Cappella del Santissimo Sacramento" in order not to interfere with the services (chapel has a precious triptych by Matteo da Gualdo). If you access www.italy360.it/…/chiesa-s-pietro… you will see the outside of the Church of St Peter, and more importantly, if you click the green “hotspot” you will be able to view interior of the church and the altar which was used by the Buddhists monks in 1986. That a consecrated building was provided for a Buddhist prayer meeting is bad enough, but that a statue of Buddha was placed on a consecrated altar, is beyond belief. The basic facts of this lamentable occasion are more than sufficient to describe the desecration of this venerable church and altar.

Like the Giotto painting of the famous challenge before the Sultan.

St. Francis entered the enemy camp and challenged the Muslim priests to go into the fire with him to see which one represented the True religion.

Now, thats a defender of Our Faith!

Trady, I have read your initial post and subsequent posts on the subject of the Assisi World Day of Prayer for Peace (1986 & 2011). In your initial post you close with the heading, "Spirit of Assisi flies in the face of that great Saint himself". I was struck by the words used in the quote that followed the heading, "We have come to preach faith in Jesus Christ to you, that you will renounce Mohammed, that wicked slave of the devil, and obtain everlasting life like us". St Francis of Assisi is well known for his beautiful use of words and is arguably the first great Italian poet. The words "St Francis of Assisi (+ c. 1210): [To the Muslims]" before the quote create the false impression that they are the words of St Francis (words attributed to five followers of the great saint). I note in the fifth paragraph of your initial post the opening words, "JP2 allowed the Dalai Lama to put a Buddha statue on top of the tabernacle to be worshipped above God in God’s own House". It would be interesting to read in greater detail about this reported sacrilege. I wonder would you be able to supply the name, author or reporter that issued the above statement? Trady, in reading your subsequent posts to your initial post, I am uncertain as to the aberrant popes you are alluding to. Can you clarify which popes from the 20th century onwards are true popes?

Good Morning Gentlemen - @Gregory - I believe it was Hildergard Von Bingen who, upon being summoned by the Bishop of Utrecht, and learning of his plight, informed him that men's hearts contain evil 'birthed from his nature'. Later in the Spanish Renaissance we hear of Teresa de Avila writing that 'like a field left untiled and left fallow bears no harvest; so too, a mind untrained and left fallow yields no benefit to the soul'. Even in these early times the mystics and Doctors of the Church knew that man's mind is a powerful intrument for good as well as bad.

Now, there are many natural abilities which come with this cerebral 'power'. We see examples of this in the non-christian religions, eg Sai Baba and Houdini, in that inexpliable events are caused (disappearing objects, levitation, the calling of flame upon an object, etc.). The phenomenon of the 'poltergeist' is yet another example of this 'natural' ability of the human mind to affect its environment directly. This ability has nothing whatsoever to do with an external source like an 'evil spirit' or an 'avenging angel'. It is what Theologians call "praeternatural "- as opposed to 'super'-natural.

The problem that the bishop of Utrecht in Hildergard's time was praeter-natural; this is what she meant by 'birthed from his[man's] nature'. Hildergard suggested to the Bishop that he go on retreat, rest, and eat less rich foods and prescribed a herbal remedy for his insomnia. He complied and was better for it. All he required was rest and sleep - NOT an exorcism or any elaborate ritual of the Church!!

Therefore, if man is still, today, comprised of natural, praeternatural and supernatural abilities, we cannot ignore the scientific disciplines of Psychology and Psychiatry. God does not touch one part of our nature and not the other (Tomas Aquinas - 'Grace builds on nature'). When God interacts with men, He does so completely (the gospels are filled with examples where Our Lord heals both mind and body - the woman with the issue of blood; Zachaeus who was healed of sin and his family member's fever dispealed).

This is why one cannot ignore one part of man's nautre in favour of another. Therefore, Gregory, when we 'work out our Salvation in fear and trembling' before the Lord, we MUST do so cognizant of ALL aspects of our existence: spiritual, psychological and physical.

Herein lies the phychological concerns we all have regarding 'Trady'. I shall say therefore no more in this regard. Now, having said this, I do wonder whether, 'heritic' can be justly affixed to 'Trady' since we all agree that his abnormal psychology is quite evident; he can not do any better. Therefore, we need to pray for him that Our Lord calm his interior storms and cause in him a healing of his whole being.

Pax tecvm

"WE the PEOPLE must make known that which we see and hear that is CONTRARY to the traditional teachings of the Church. To call out that priest or sister whose agenda is to continue to destroy the true teachings of our faith and who wishes to make it one that is agreeable to their liking. Be Soldiers, Be Courageous, Expose Evil, and Pray God to give us the Grace to die a Martyr if called to do so."

Amen Holy Rope! VERY well put, you got a little "Voris" in ya too I see! I could not agree with you more!!

Pax
Maria

The Second Vatican Council called by Pope John John XXIII was to "open the windows" of the Church says the Pope, to the modern world. He said he hoped to "update" the Church, and make it more relevant to the times and to draw more people to the Church.
Millions of words have been written about these "reforms". Catholics were told time and time again: "the essentials of the faith have not been changed" and that Vatican II brought about true "renewal" in the Church.

Let us recall what Our Lord said, that we can know a tree by its fruit -- that a good tree brings forth good fruits and a bad tree brings forth bad fruits. What then have been the fruits of Vatican II? Priests and sisters abandoned their sacred calling by the tens of thousands, and once-full seminaries and convents now stand empty or have closed. Attendance at mass has dropped dramatically, theologians have called into question or even denied nearly every doctrine of the Catholic faith, and the Church's teachings on morality are openly denied or carefully ignored by clergy and laity alike.

Can these fruits be called good fruits? Most Catholics would say no. And since the fruits are bad, this leads many people to conclude that the tree that produced such fruits, in this case Vatican II, is bad as well.

There has always been and will remain enemies of the true faith within and without. This is why it is Imperative that Catholics Know the faith. For these past decades the faithful have been led as lost sheep into a den controlled and policed by those who have their own ideas and agendas for the Church.
This Pope is well aware of the enemies that are so prevelant today, it is easy to conclude things in which we have not all the evidence. It is easy to make claims and judgments when we have not ALL the facts. A captain cannot lead his army if the soldiers are not willing to take orders or remain obedient. Somewhere in time, much was going on in our church just like in our government, and not for a long time do we have the voices crying out and exposing the traitors and thiefs and those who have no interest other than accummulating Power.
So what I'm getting at here, is that WE the PEOPLE must make known that which we see and hear that is CONTRARY to the traditional teachings of the Church. To call out that priest or sister whose agenda is to continue to destroy the true teachings of our faith and who wishes to make it one that is agreeable to their liking. Be Soldiers, Be Courageous, Expose Evil, and Pray God to give us the Grace to die a Martyr if called to do so.

"...the great movement of apostasy being organized in every country for the establishment of a One-World Church which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, neither discipline for the mind...
Indeed, the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries, nor innovators: they are traditionalists."

Pope St. Pius X,

"Our Apostolic Mandate"

1910

I read their where a total of 41 illegitimate popes.Trady, I wouldn't pay much attention to kfarley.

I love my Pipe

@ rhemes - One can only try dear borther. Now regarding 'Trady', I do not think he/she is really seeking truth, but is lost in the mire of their own confusion. We do not engage with them anymore dear, but pray for their illumination.

Pax

Gregory - your language is still problematic. As it stands now, you have described a feudal relationship between the God Head and The Peter: the 'will' of the master is reflected in the 'will' of the serf. This is also incorrect because as we have agreed, The Peter is guided by the Holy Spirit in a unique way. But even The Peter needs to pray and to 'work out his salvation in fear and trembling'.

rhemes - indeed I can only try. If we begin by stating the cosmological reality that there is one God and that ALL man's supernatural experiences originate in this one and only God, (See the recently translated V century manuscript "The Magi and the Star-child".), then all the ancient religions of men can be said to hold some truth. The congregation for interreligious dialogue is careful to highlight this (Cf. JPII's encyclical on the Oriental Religions). HOWEVER, because of the Incarnation in Christ Jesus our Lord, all that is needed for a man's salvation is the Christ.

Now, the Hindus, Muslims, Islamic, Bhuddists, Zen, Zoastrians, etc., all evince a modicum of the cosmological reality of the one true God. However, only until they accept the Incarnation of the one true God revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord can they come to experience the Fullness of Divine Revelation and begin on the path to "work out their salvation in fear and trembling".

In order to expose them to the reality of Christ Jesus our Lord, Assisi 1986 was "hatched". The premise of the event was to call together all men of the earth to address the one true God as experienced by diverse men in diverse ways. An event which should have drawn upon the aforementioned 'modicum of truth' in all religions.

HOwever, the organisation of this event did not introduce the same Christ Jesus who is missing in these other religions. Herein lies the problem. However, when JPII presided over the proceedings in 1986, didn't he not represent Christ Himself? Didn't Christ in His Pontiff not address these incomplete religions? The very fact that JPII preached and was present, exposed the abovelisted unfortunate incomplete religions of the world to the Incarnation. How did this exposure inform them and how did it change anything? That is left up to the hearts of each participant there.

Therefore, to judge the Assisi 1986 event to be not pleasing to God might be a tad too presumptuous.....

Pax

PS I do not condone what the organisers actually did, but amidst the hurly-burly of the pagan, Christ stood in the person of His Peter.