Still_I_Rise
Vatican 2 was unneeded. It was meant to be an open door, that is what happens when you start with a premise that there is something wrong with you. The fact is the Vatican caved to the pressure from the outside, from the satanic modernists.

Jesus never forced people to believe in Him. But he also never changed who He was in an effort to obtain acceptance. The Church should've done the same …More
Vatican 2 was unneeded. It was meant to be an open door, that is what happens when you start with a premise that there is something wrong with you. The fact is the Vatican caved to the pressure from the outside, from the satanic modernists.

Jesus never forced people to believe in Him. But he also never changed who He was in an effort to obtain acceptance. The Church should've done the same thing. Truth is liberation.
Be Ye Separate
"Jesus never forced people to believe in Him. But he also never changed who He was in an effort to obtain acceptance."
Excellent analogy.
W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
The Second Vatican Council recalled the truth that there is only one true catholic religion to which all people are called, but they have a free choice of faith because human dignity requires them to act freely (Jesus never forced anyone to believe because it respects the free will of man). The council teaches that we are to evangelize all people to the point of to the shedding of blood, but …More
The Second Vatican Council recalled the truth that there is only one true catholic religion to which all people are called, but they have a free choice of faith because human dignity requires them to act freely (Jesus never forced anyone to believe because it respects the free will of man). The council teaches that we are to evangelize all people to the point of to the shedding of blood, but we must never force them. The problem of the teaching of the last council is the lack of clarity in several places, especially the lack of definition of the boundary of religious freedom of non-believers. The second problem is treating this pastoral council, the least important in the history of the Church, as a dogma, while ignoring all previous dogmatic councils.
Be Ye Separate
There was no need for V2 council (1962-1965) to state that we Catholics were not to force people to convert. What Catholics were forcing people?
In fact, it was the exact opposite. We Catholics were murdered, persecuted and sent to concentration camps for not converting to the Nazi cult. This was only approximately 20 years before the council.
You are correct about the ambiguous language of the …More
There was no need for V2 council (1962-1965) to state that we Catholics were not to force people to convert. What Catholics were forcing people?
In fact, it was the exact opposite. We Catholics were murdered, persecuted and sent to concentration camps for not converting to the Nazi cult. This was only approximately 20 years before the council.
You are correct about the ambiguous language of the documents, many Catholics have stated this. Ambiguous equals confusion, and confusion is of the devil.
.
Jesus Is The Teacher Of Truth.
Ultraviolet
"What Catholics were forcing people?" -Be Ye Stupid Well... Since you did ask... :D

... the same Catholics whom Pope Gregory the Great condemned for forcing conversions. A Catholic Pope would not condemn the practice of forced conversions if it were not a rampant problem. That's as early as 591 AD

Also the same Catholics who were also repeatedly condemned in Constitutio pro JudaeisMore
"What Catholics were forcing people?" -Be Ye Stupid Well... Since you did ask... :D

... the same Catholics whom Pope Gregory the Great condemned for forcing conversions. A Catholic Pope would not condemn the practice of forced conversions if it were not a rampant problem. That's as early as 591 AD

Also the same Catholics who were also repeatedly condemned in Constitutio pro Judaeis because they were forcing conversions.

--"issued by successive popes (including some of those least favorable to Jews) from the beginning of the 12th down to the close of the 15th century declared categorically that no Christian should use violence to force Jews to be baptized so long as they were unwilling - though without specifying what was to happen if the illegal process actually took place.

Indeed, Pope *Innocent III, in a letter of 1201 to the archbishop of Arles, considered that a Jew who submitted to baptism under threat of force expressed a conditional willingness to accept the sacrament, with the corollary that he was not at liberty to renounce it. (acknowledging forced conversions were so commonplace His Holiness even had to rule on the subject! -UV) On the other hand, Innocent IV in 1246 categorically forbade the forced baptism of children, the same presumably applying a fortiori to adults."--

Popes do not need to issue repeated denunciations unless a problem exists and is widespread.

The Portugeses were notable culprits against pretty much everybody. (From Wiki:) --Instead of another expulsion, the King of Portugal ordered the forced conversion of the Jews in 1497, and these were called New Christians or Crypto-Jews.--

--Goa was a sanctuary for Jews forcibly converted to Christianity in the Iberian peninsula. These forcibly baptized converts were known as New Christians. They lived in what came to be known then as the Jew street.--

--Hindu children whose father had died were required to be handed over to the Jesuits for conversion to Christianity; This began under a 1559 royal order from Portugal, whereafter Hindu children alleged to be orphan were seized by Society of Jesus and converted to Christianity.--
.
Then there was the Motara Case in 1858.

Moving on into the twentieth century, (from wiki) --During WWII Orthodox Serbs were forcibly converted to Catholicism.--

This is still a sore spot for the Serbian Orthodox Church.

"In fact, it was the exact opposite."

In fact your falsehood just got categorically BTFO by the very Popes who condemned the practice and by a long line of Catholic rulers and clergy who ignored those Papal condemnations.

Forced conversions to Catholicism were widespred and involved multiple faiths throughout history, as recent as the 1940s when they were even inflicted on Catholic schismatics, no less.
Be Ye Separate
I just looked up "BTFO" - it's short for "Blown The F*ck Out"
Do you expect to be taken seriously?
Your a lying, worldly creature.
Ultraviolet
"Your a lying, worldly creature."

Show where I lied, @Be Ye Separate

You made a claim about convesions and I showed it was false. If you made that claim out of ignorance, then you you need to STFU (go look that one up, too) and learn from those of us who clearly know more about Church history than you do.

If you made the claim, knowing it was false, then it is YOU who have lied. That …More
"Your a lying, worldly creature."

Show where I lied, @Be Ye Separate

You made a claim about convesions and I showed it was false. If you made that claim out of ignorance, then you you need to STFU (go look that one up, too) and learn from those of us who clearly know more about Church history than you do.

If you made the claim, knowing it was false, then it is YOU who have lied. That would be consistent with your anti-Semitism here on GTV.

Either way "your" wrong on the facts and and you don't know how contractions work, either.
Ultraviolet
"Yet the Popes and Saints... commanded us to discriminate against men of other religions." ...then you quoted a saint who didn't do that. @Be Ye Stupid

To "shun" as St. John Eudes uses the term is to avoid something. It's a reactive measure. As in, "shunning bad company". St. John Eudes gives advice consistent with Christ's message in in Mark 6:11

Discrmination is an active measure. It's …More
"Yet the Popes and Saints... commanded us to discriminate against men of other religions." ...then you quoted a saint who didn't do that. @Be Ye Stupid

To "shun" as St. John Eudes uses the term is to avoid something. It's a reactive measure. As in, "shunning bad company". St. John Eudes gives advice consistent with Christ's message in in Mark 6:11

Discrmination is an active measure. It's going out of your way to do something.

In modern language, "discrimination" also carries the meaning of imposing a deliberate and unfair bias. Avoiding people and discriminating against peopleare not the same. Nostra Aetate also condemns "harrassment" which is also an active measure.

Did St. John Eudes "command" Catholics to harass people? No? Probably for the same reason he didn't "command" Catholics to discriminate, either. It's wrong

You're perverting a Saint's advice to avoid people who profess false doctrines into discriminating against them.

The Saint doesn't contradict Nostra Aetate. Your interpretation of the saint does.

It's a deliberate conflation between the passive and the active. The Saint told Catholics to "shun" people with false doctrines.

That doesn't "command" Catholics to discriminate against people or to harass them and it doesn't contradict Nostra Aetate either.

Saint John Eudes didn't say anything about "men of other religions". That's how you bigots, especially the ones obsessed with Jews misread the saint.

He to shun "those who profess false doctrines."

During the era in which the saint wrote, the world saw many entirely Christian heresies which were "false doctrines". The word "doctrine" applies only to the truths taught by The Church. If St. John Eudes wished to speak against false religions" he would have done so. He isn't justifying your bigotry.

When the saint says we should, "whenever possible" shun such people, that's good advice casually speaking. It isn't Church policy. Again. as Catholics, we could not evangelize to "those who profess false doctrines" if we avoided them entirely.

The Saint didn't "command" we should discriminate against them the way YOU just claimed.

"We decree that such people of both sexes, that is, Jews and Mohammedans, be distinguished in public by a difference in dress in every province of Christendom and at all times, since this was also enjoined on such people by Moses." IV Lateran Council

The fourth Lateran Council's concerns that "Christians mingle with the women of Jews and Mohammedans" is quaint. :D

As if any Catholic today, so inclined, is going to be put off by an article of clothing. :P The Fourth Lateran Council also declared that Jews were prohibited from holding public office.

History has already given the world one hideous example of what happens when bigots take these medieval concerns with "mingling" and apply them to modern government. It's obvious you'd like to bring those bad old days back.

No matter how much "Christ is King" you shovel on GTV, you aren't interested in "Be Ye Separate". You want to bring it all back. All of it. The yellow stars, the striped uniforms, the barbed wire, the camps, the ovens.

This is why you re-wrote Hitler's slogan into something "Catholic". Just one problem. The Catholic Church has condemned this -after- the Fourth Lateran Council and well before Nostra Aetate.

"No, no I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually we are all Semites." -Pope Pius XI (1938)

You talk about what the Popes command, but I quote a Pope who lived in the world you want to bring back.

History has given the Church some pespective of how "Be Ye Separate" gets put into policy. How the Fourth Lateran Council gets implemented beyond just the "high minded" citation.

"Popes and the saints", you say?

"First they marked them with a particular sign. Then pushed in ghettos, in isolated quarters. Then brought to the gas chambers, bringing them death, just because they were sons of this people" -Saint John Paul II.

"Nevertheless, a consideration of centuries-long cultural conditioning could not prevent us from recognizing that the acts of discrimination, unjustified limitation of religious freedom, oppression, also on the level of civil freedom, in regard to the Jews were, from an objective point of view, gravely deplorable manifestations." -Saint John Paul II


THAT is what "the Popes and the Saints" have taught with a first-hand experience of dealing with modern Jew-haters like you.

People like you are the reason Nostra Aetate was written in the first place. The way you fixate on Nostra Aetate exclusively every time the subject of Vatican II comes up, it's easy to see what your priorities are. You can't sell your fake-Catholic Gospel According To E. Michael Jones when the Church slams the door on harassment and discrimination in no uncertain terms.

The Popes and the Saints and the Church flatly denounce the sort of "discrimination" you clearly wish to bring back.
Be Ye Separate
"If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house, nor say to him: "God speed you." For he who says to him "God speed you" communicates with his wicked works." II John 1:10-11
Be Ye Separate
Discriminate: : to distinguish by discerning or exposing differences : to recognize or identify as separate and distinct. (M.Webster)
Above St. John is telling Catholics to discriminate, today this would include the numerous heretics: Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists... Discriminate that their teachings are false, then do not associate with them.
Ultraviolet
Ironically enough, John was addressing how Christians should respond to other Christians, notably Gnostics which were a problem at the time. Surprise! Your ignorance of Scripture shoots your own position in the foot.

Or is it just ignorance? I wonder. ;-)

You bigots make those "mistakes" all too often. Even then, not welcoming people "into the house" is a MILES away from forcing people to …More
Ironically enough, John was addressing how Christians should respond to other Christians, notably Gnostics which were a problem at the time. Surprise! Your ignorance of Scripture shoots your own position in the foot.

Or is it just ignorance? I wonder. ;-)

You bigots make those "mistakes" all too often. Even then, not welcoming people "into the house" is a MILES away from forcing people to wear little yellow stars and bundling them off to death camps.

Then there's the matter of what "into the house" actually meant at the time when 2 John was written but modern homes aren't constructed that way anymore so it's not an issue. You're still wrong.
Be Ye Separate
Horrible reading comprehension you have and no one said anything about death camps, that's your irrational mind.
Ultraviolet
"Above St. John is telling Catholics to discriminate,"

St. John did not use the word discriminate. YOU did. So, no, St. John is NOT "telling Catholics to discriminate". You're trying to interpolate "shun" with "discriminate". Literally, you are putting a word under the man's pen which he did not write.

In truth, you shoulda stuck with "shun" since "discerning or exposing differences" doesn'…More
"Above St. John is telling Catholics to discriminate,"

St. John did not use the word discriminate. YOU did. So, no, St. John is NOT "telling Catholics to discriminate". You're trying to interpolate "shun" with "discriminate". Literally, you are putting a word under the man's pen which he did not write.

In truth, you shoulda stuck with "shun" since "discerning or exposing differences" doesn't imply avoiding what IS different.

"Discriminate" also has a socio-political meaning and this IS the context in which YOU are using it. Namely, to address how Christians respond to the socio-political context of our times.

..and The Church flatly condemns your application.

Trying to hide in the dictionary isn't going to save you, chum. Speaking of which... I noticed you chose the second definition while ignoring the first listed in Merriam Webster.

Typical bigot games.... picking what you like and ignoring everything else. You do it to the Church's teachings and you do it to poor Merriam-Webster as well. ;-)
Ultraviolet
"Horrible reading comprehension you have"

My reading comprehension is more than sufficient to spot your errors, buttercup. ;-)

My memory serves me in good stead as well.

You were the same roughly-shorn little lamb who, just a few short days ago angrily bleated "I will not communicate again."

...and here you are, communicating again. :D

"and no one said anything about death camps, that'…More
"Horrible reading comprehension you have"

My reading comprehension is more than sufficient to spot your errors, buttercup. ;-)

My memory serves me in good stead as well.

You were the same roughly-shorn little lamb who, just a few short days ago angrily bleated "I will not communicate again."

...and here you are, communicating again. :D

"and no one said anything about death camps, that's your irrational mind."

One supported by world history and your own "quasi-Catholic" re-writing of Third Reich slogans. That's been a consistent problem for you anti-Semites. You've fetishized all the Deutschland erwache! nonsense, you indulge yourself, and then you look silly trying to pretend you aren't.

Saint John Paul II went even further with such his own "irrational mind" and described the process to its inevitable conclusion: "Then brought to the gas chambers"

Irrational? No, that's history. That's how things turned out the last time bigots like you sarted screaming "Be Ye Separate" and forced non-Christians to wear "special clothing"

Irrationality is implying history won't repeat itself when you're obviously trying to make it do just that.
Be Ye Separate
We Catholics were murdered, persecuted and sent to concentration camps for not converting to the Nazi cult.
The demonic Nazi Cult hated my great Apostolic Catholic Church.
Ultraviolet
...and yet here you are, still promoting the very policies the Nazis put into practice and against the very people the Nazis attacked.

If you hated "the demonic Nazi Cult" you wouldn't be trying to re-write Hitler's slogans into something for your fantasy-fascist fake-Catholic dictatorship.
andrew24157
Ultraviolet - are you a Jew? or are you a Catholic? Make up your mind. Judging from your megalomaniac style you are not at all Catholic..Then, what are you doing here?
Ultraviolet
...and on what grounds do you assume Catholicism automatically promotes bigotry and anti-Semitism @andrew24157? Or are you implying only Jews have an interest in the truth? ;-)

You are making a fallacy of a Non Sequitur, a bad one. :P

Out of charity, I'm ignoring the implicit Ad Hominem you're making by questioning my Catholic faith. I make no secret of my pride. It's a direct outgrowt…More
...and on what grounds do you assume Catholicism automatically promotes bigotry and anti-Semitism @andrew24157? Or are you implying only Jews have an interest in the truth? ;-)

You are making a fallacy of a Non Sequitur, a bad one. :P

Out of charity, I'm ignoring the implicit Ad Hominem you're making by questioning my Catholic faith. I make no secret of my pride. It's a direct outgrowth of a.) being right and b.) the ability to prove a.) whenever the necessity arises. ...like I've been doing here. ;-)

Catholic writers have spent the better part of a thousand years refuting errors, including those promulgated by other supposed Catholics.. I have every reason to continue doing so. Bigots like @Be Ye Separate are ignorant. Worse, they are stupid (not to be confused with mere ignorance). Building on their tower of errors, they are deliberately deceitful while promoting their errors

...all of which gives Catholics, particularly traditionalist Catholics, a bad name.

If their errors are left unrefuted, the Church's enemies (even those within the Church) can point to people like that and say, "See? See? This is what traditionalist Catholics believe. See? This is a traditionalist Catholic media portal, filled with rampant anti-Semitic falsehoods, and NOBODY complains."

In law, silence does not imply consent. However, most people are not lawyers and naturally see the former pointing to the latter. ;-)
Be Ye Separate
Vatican 2 - "The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion." (Nostra Aetate)
Yet the Popes and Saints throughout the centuries, have commanded us to discriminate against men of other religions.

"I entreat you to shun, whenever possible, the society of those who profess …More
Vatican 2 - "The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion." (Nostra Aetate)
Yet the Popes and Saints throughout the centuries, have commanded us to discriminate against men of other religions.

"I entreat you to shun, whenever possible, the society of those who profess false doctrines.
St. John Eudes"
"Whence it sometimes happens through error that Christians mingle with the women of Jews and Mohammedans and, on the other hand, Jews and Mohammedans mingle with those of Christians. Therefore, in order that such ruinous commingling of this kind through error may not serve as a refuge for further excuse for excess, We decree that such people of both sexes, that is, Jews and Mohammedans, be distinguished in public by a difference in dress in every province of Christendom and at all times, since this was also enjoined on such people by Moses." IV Lateran Council
HerzMariae
Sentences that begin with “I was raised Catholic,” always end in horror