philosopher
Vat II defined no new doctrines, so what new doctrines are the SSPX required to believe above and beyond the Creed, Sacred Scripture and Tradition, and Universal Magisterium's teaching on faith and morals? Why are they equivocating the pastoral as doctrinal. These are two distinct categories.
Ave Crux
@philosopher -- Yes, and that is the whole point. It's a great injustice. Just like one would expect from Modernists.
Ave Crux
@tbswv With reference to your comment about the "new" Mass, I am presently listening to an excellent talk given by Father Ripperger, FSSP which explains how the New Mass was a complete rupture with the normal development of every single Catholic Rite (i.e. including the Eastern Rites) in the Church -- each of which traces its origins back to the Apostles.

He explains that the New Mass was …More
@tbswv With reference to your comment about the "new" Mass, I am presently listening to an excellent talk given by Father Ripperger, FSSP which explains how the New Mass was a complete rupture with the normal development of every single Catholic Rite (i.e. including the Eastern Rites) in the Church -- each of which traces its origins back to the Apostles.

He explains that the New Mass was compiled by a "Committee" after Vatican II; that the Offertory has absolutely no continuity with the Traditional Mass and...sadly....that the words of the new "Offertory" are taken from the Jewish Talmud, which Father Ripperger explains is an "anti-Christian text" and have absolutely no root in liturgical tradition.
Aaron-Jozef
Om weer terug te keren naar een Duivelse Tweede Vaticaanse Rooms Katholieke Concilie kerk, mooi niet natuurlijk.
SHJ-IHM
This sounds like what the liberals demanded of Archbishop Lefebvre from the beginning of the conflict - that he accept ALL of the teachings of the non-dogmatic council and ALL of the subsequent post-conciliar teachings.(Is that all??!!) All the liberals want is to publicly declare that there is no resistance to their innovations!
michael newman
Excellent point. It’s not a dogmatic council, that means you can take it or leave it and remain fully Catholic. I’d much rather leave it. Having read every single document, even I can recognise glaring contradictions. Why force VII down the throat of SSPX? Why is it a condition to be given a canonical position? They can run parishes surely? Much better than my local Salasian parish which had its …More
Excellent point. It’s not a dogmatic council, that means you can take it or leave it and remain fully Catholic. I’d much rather leave it. Having read every single document, even I can recognise glaring contradictions. Why force VII down the throat of SSPX? Why is it a condition to be given a canonical position? They can run parishes surely? Much better than my local Salasian parish which had its synodal path meetings published recently and highest agenda item was recognising homosexuals living together as being married.
tbswv
I recommend leaving all of it. No question in my mind their intent was to create a new "religion". It's decrees and announcements are not consistent with the tradition of the Church, and they transformed the liturgy into a protestant fellowship service. I want no part of it. Young people see right through it and are discovering the beauty of the TLM.
Ave Crux
@michael newman "local Salasian parish which had its synodal path meetings published recently and highest agenda item was recognising homosexuals living together as being married." Really....??!! Horrors! They clearly manipulated that and will send it to Rome as an objective...! What are we in for next?
Dante Alighieri
Some very good and informative postings adding to the debate here.
Ave Crux
We lived and breathed it, so it always seems like this should be common knowledge. Well, apparently it's not. So it's time to dig it up for the Neo-Cons.
michael newman
@Dante Alighieri there really is no debate, just ignorance. The SSPX are not in schism never have been. They accept the Pope (like many others me included, with a great deal of anguish about his behaviour and causing confusion)
Dante Alighieri
@Ave Crux @michael newman That also is something I thought for a long time before reading gloria.tv. I thought the "SSPX is in schism" debate was resolved. I also accept Pope Francis as at least nominal pope, but with grave doubts due to the magnitude of his apparent errors, and most of all, his definite intent, his anger toward the devout Catholics, priests and nuns. I still don't get it, …More
@Ave Crux @michael newman That also is something I thought for a long time before reading gloria.tv. I thought the "SSPX is in schism" debate was resolved. I also accept Pope Francis as at least nominal pope, but with grave doubts due to the magnitude of his apparent errors, and most of all, his definite intent, his anger toward the devout Catholics, priests and nuns. I still don't get it, but knowing that sometimes after death errors are finally called out. It takes a long time in the Catholic Church. Wycliffe "officially" became a heretic 31 years after his death when he was "declared" to be so, but his heresies were committed while he was alive. Frankie may be a heretic now, but we may not know officially that he is a heretic until after his death, or maybe only that he held serious anti-Catholic errors, and the same goes for being an anti-pope, if Benedict's resignation was (intentionally) improper, so that after being forced to resign the next (invalid anti-)pope would have everything declared null and void. I do not know at all, but I actually hope that Ann Barnhardt is right on this. We may not know that someone was an anti-pope until after he is dead. Or, on the other hand, Frankie may just be the most horrible Pope of modern times. But, being the Romantic that I am, I would like to think that God can make it so it is like one of those movies, where it is all just a dream that never happened, like the Wizard of Oz.
Ave Crux
@Dante Alighieri "But, being the Romantic that I am, I would like to think that God can make it so it is like one of those movies, where it is all just a dream that never happened, like the Wizard of Oz." 😂 and 😭 ...both

Yes, it does feel like a nightmare sometimes, and many things Pope Francis is doing would enrage me; but after speaking to a highly conservative, very traditional Catholic …More
@Dante Alighieri "But, being the Romantic that I am, I would like to think that God can make it so it is like one of those movies, where it is all just a dream that never happened, like the Wizard of Oz." 😂 and 😭 ...both

Yes, it does feel like a nightmare sometimes, and many things Pope Francis is doing would enrage me; but after speaking to a highly conservative, very traditional Catholic Apologist, I came to understand that we can do absolutely nothing but trust God to resolve it in His time.

We "shelter" in place, adhere to the Papacy, but not the person. We dissent from error and destruction. All else we receive with tranquility.

God is still in control in the midst of the tornado that threatens to carry Dorothy off; and -- in the mean time -- all lawful, just, and non-heretical acts and decrees of the Holy See can be assumed as legitimate papal acts.

God doesn't expect us to be able to see what's behind the curtain at Oz until He pulls it back.

Oz was a great analogy! Thanks!
Chat Chartreux
@Ave Crux The Mother (the Church) is sick, so the children are fending for themselves until she's well again.
Ave Crux
@Chat Chartreux The scripture that echoes in my soul over and over again in these times is Ezekiel 34, where God condemns the fattened, wicked shepherds who care only for themselves, and leave the sheep to be wounded, starved and devoured by wolves, giving them stones instead of bread to eat.

God declares that He Himself will shepherd the abandoned sheep and bring them back from the wilderness,…More
@Chat Chartreux The scripture that echoes in my soul over and over again in these times is Ezekiel 34, where God condemns the fattened, wicked shepherds who care only for themselves, and leave the sheep to be wounded, starved and devoured by wolves, giving them stones instead of bread to eat.

God declares that He Himself will shepherd the abandoned sheep and bring them back from the wilderness, providing for all their needs.....

It is what He will always do for those who love Him. Archbishop Lefebvre was a faithful shepherd, and that is why God was able to use him as an instrument in our times of "apostasy" (John Paull II)

But woe to the guilty shepherds....their judgment will be great indeed.
________________________

[1] And the word of the Lord came to me, saying: [2] Son of man, prophesy concerning the shepherds of Israel: prophesy, and say to the shepherds: Thus saith the Lord God: Woe to the shepherds of Israel, that fed themselves: should not the flocks be fed by the shepherds? [3] You ate the milk, and you clothed yourselves with the wool, and you killed that which was fat: but my flock you did not feed.

[4] The weak you have not strengthened, and that which was sick you have not healed, that which was broken you have not bound up, and that which was driven away you have not brought again, neither have you sought that which was lost: but you ruled over them with rigour, and with a high hand. [5] And my sheep were scattered, because there was no shepherd: and they became the prey of all the beasts of the field, and were scattered.

[6] My sheep have wandered in every mountain, and in every high hill: and my flocks were scattered upon the face of the earth, and there was none that sought them, there was none, I say, that sought them. [7] Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord:

[8] As I live, saith the Lord God, forasmuch as my flocks have been made a spoil, and my sheep are become a prey to all the beasts of the field, because there was no shepherd: for my shepherds did not seek after my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flocks:

[9] Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: [10] Thus saith the Lord God: Behold I myself come upon the shepherds, I will require my flock at their hand, and I will cause them to cease from feeding the flock any more, neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more: and I will deliver my flock from their mouth, and it shall no more be meat for them.

[11] For thus saith the Lord God: Behold I myself will seek my sheep, and will visit them. [12] As the shepherd visiteth his flock in the day when he shall be in the midst of his sheep that were scattered, so will I visit my sheep, and will deliver them out of all the places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

[13] And I will bring them out from the peoples, and will gather them out of the countries, and will bring them to their own land: and I will feed them in the mountains of Israel, by the rivers, and in all the habitations of the land. [14] I will feed them in the most fruitful pastures, and their pastures shall be in the high mountains of Israel: there shall they rest on the green grass, and be fed in fat pastures upon the mountains of Israel. [15] I will feed my sheep: and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God.

[16] I will seek that which was lost: and that which was driven away, I will bring again: and I will bind up that which was broken, and I will strengthen that which was weak, and that which was fat and strong I will preserve: and I will feed them in judgment.
Chat Chartreux
@Ave Crux Speaks of our times perfectly. Wow. Thank you.