Christmas Campaign: Financial Insights
F M Shyanguya
And @Dr Bobus is correct. And this is borne out in Pope Pius XII’s Constitution:

“We do by Our Apostolic Authority declare, and if there was ever a lawful disposition to the contrary We now decree that at least in the future the traditio instrumentorum is not necessary for the validity of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy.”

Translation:


Even if what we …More
And @Dr Bobus is correct. And this is borne out in Pope Pius XII’s Constitution:

“We do by Our Apostolic Authority declare, and if there was ever a lawful disposition to the contrary We now decree that at least in the future the traditio instrumentorum is not necessary for the validity of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy.”

Translation:


Even if what we did in the past was lawful, going forward ...

He deems traditio instrumentorum no longer necessary. He doesn’t say it was erroneous to have regarded it as such in the past.
F M Shyanguya
The things the Church in her authority she can establish, she can likewise change or abrogate. This is the meaning of whatever she binds or losens on earth, it is bound or losened in heaven.

And this is precisely the argument the Pontiff puts forth before he makes his declaration:
W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
Its matter... (Ecumenical Council of Florence, Session 8, 22 November 1439).

... that the matter, and the only matter (Pius XII, Sacramentum Ordinis 4)
F M Shyanguya
Moving on ...
Dr Bobus
The Church lacks the authority to change the Sacramental Matter only when it is explicit in Scripture, e.g., Bread and Wine--Eucharist, Water--Baptism, Baptized Male--Holy Orders.
W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands (2 Timothy 1, 6).
Dr Bobus
There is no indication that refers to Holy Orders.
W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
Dr Bobus
It is not apparent in the Scriptural text itself that it refers to the Sacramental Matter of Holy Orders. It has been in the Rite of Ordination for years, at least dating to the 13th century. On the other hand, the Medieval Doctors did not consider it to be the Sac Matter.
W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me (St. Augustine, Contra epistolam Manichaei 5, 6: PL 42, 176; CCC 119).
Caroline03
I don't think that's the case. I'm not qualified to say, but the Rite of Priestly Ordination as a Sacrament has not been significantly altered from that spoken of at earlier councils and handed down to us by Christ.All they are speaking of here at Constance I'm sure is that along with the normal Rite of Priestly Ordination it is now also decreed that every newly ordained Priest is to be given a …More
I don't think that's the case. I'm not qualified to say, but the Rite of Priestly Ordination as a Sacrament has not been significantly altered from that spoken of at earlier councils and handed down to us by Christ.All they are speaking of here at Constance I'm sure is that along with the normal Rite of Priestly Ordination it is now also decreed that every newly ordained Priest is to be given a Chalice and Pattern set. (this custom is still going on!

It's something additional to the Ordination Rite,

From Wikapedia
"After the consecratory prayer, the newly ordained is vested with the stole and chasuble of those belonging to the Ministerial Priesthood and then the bishop anoints his hands with chrism before presenting him with the chalice and paten which he will use when presiding at the Eucharist. "

As for Pius XII "correcting" what was said at Florence. It is known that Christ instigated the Rite of Holy Orders by the Laying on of hands - a practice spoken of historically throughout the centuries. .....as Apostolic Succession. Again, It is not likely that the decree at the Council of Florence was altering the Rite of Ordination and substituting it for the gift of the Chalice and Paten. I hope I've understood you correctly - sorry if I haven't. 😀

The complete statement at Florence session 8

"The sixth is the sacrament of orders. Its matter is the object by whose handing over the order is conferred. So the priesthood is bestowed by the handing over of a chalice with wine and a paten with bread; the diaconate by the giving of the book of the gospels; the subdiaconate by the handing over of an empty chalice with an empty paten on it; and similarly for the other orders by allotting things connected with their ministry. The form for a priest is: Receive the power of offering sacrifice in the church for the living and the dead, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit. The forms for the other orders are contained in full in the Roman pontifical. The ordinary minister of this sacrament is a bishop. The effect is an increase of grace to make the person a suitable minister of Christ."

ewtn.com/…rary/council-of-constance-1459
W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
In the Roman Liturgy until the 10th century, the ritual of priestly ordination it was simple: laying on of hands and prayer. In the 10th century, the gesture of handing over the chalice and paten was added. Over time, this led to the imposition of hands being marginalized, and eventually the Council of Florence issued such a text. However, even Clement VIII, Benedict XIV and Leo XIII, contrary …More
In the Roman Liturgy until the 10th century, the ritual of priestly ordination it was simple: laying on of hands and prayer. In the 10th century, the gesture of handing over the chalice and paten was added. Over time, this led to the imposition of hands being marginalized, and eventually the Council of Florence issued such a text. However, even Clement VIII, Benedict XIV and Leo XIII, contrary to the statements of the Council of Florence, taught that ordination in the eastern rites was valid only by the laying on of hands, and Pius XII definitively closed the subject.
F M Shyanguya
Where is the “error”?

- Sacramentum Ordinis | On the Sacrament of Order | Pope Pius XII - 1947

Continually agitating the faithful. To what end?

If the Church can err in her Councils, in her most solemn teaching, why believe in her at all as we profess in the Creed?
F M Shyanguya
Confusion on Church terminology apparent.

Cf 3 Primers on the Church
F M Shyanguya
F M Shyanguya
This principal and approach by St Augustine would be beneficial to adopt by those who, either by themselves or agitated by the Church’s enemies within and without, are having trouble with Church matters and things that the Church herself doesn’t have trouble with:

For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of …More
This principal and approach by St Augustine would be beneficial to adopt by those who, either by themselves or agitated by the Church’s enemies within and without, are having trouble with Church matters and things that the Church herself doesn’t have trouble with:

For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the manuscript is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it.

From Augustine to Jerome (A.D. 405)
W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
Jews and Saracens of both sexes in every Christian province must be distinguished from the Christian by a difference of dress. On Passion Sunday and the last three days of Holy Week they may not appear in public (Lateran Council IV, Canon 68).

This is unacceptable in our time. It cannot be forgotten that the nazis ordered Jews to wear marked clothes.
F M Shyanguya
Dubia for the Church. You are the one having trouble with Church teaching.
W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
I have no problem with the teaching of the Church and I understand it well, so I distinguish between infallible teaching and teaching that is not infallible.
F M Shyanguya
So according to you, the Church has “fallible” teaching?
W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
When it comes to dogmatic councils, they make an infallible teaching, but only when it is clearly stated that it is a revealed teaching by God. Thus, not every sentence of the conciliar texts has the rank of infallibility and immutability.
F M Shyanguya
Herein your error, equating infallibility [without error] with immutability [cannot change] or thinking if infallible, it must also be immutable. Only dogmas are, and not all of Church teaching, which is infallible, is dogma, the latter being but a subset of the former.
W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable (Vatican I`s Dogmatic Constitution "Pastor aeternus" 9).
F M Shyanguya
You keep making things worse but at the same time expose yourself. Now you are reducing all of Church’s teaching, which is infallible, to or equating them to only ex-cathedra definitions by a Pontiff.

Cf 3 Primers on the Church

Moving on ...
W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
When the pope and bishops teach in a council with the privilege of infallibility (CCC 891), then errors can never occur, and such teaching is completely immutable (no future pope has the right to change such infallible teaching).

When a pope teaches with bishops without committing himself to the privilege of infallibility (CCC 892), he always uses the help of the Holy Spirit, so we believe …More
When the pope and bishops teach in a council with the privilege of infallibility (CCC 891), then errors can never occur, and such teaching is completely immutable (no future pope has the right to change such infallible teaching).

When a pope teaches with bishops without committing himself to the privilege of infallibility (CCC 892), he always uses the help of the Holy Spirit, so we believe the Church will never preach heresy.

However, it may happen that such teaching (not having the rank of infallibility) may contain ambiguities or even minor errors, which, however, do not contradict dogmas (Donum veritatis 24). The Pope has the right to change such teaching.

The teaching of the Church must be received in two ways:

1. Theological faith (Donum veritatis 23), that is divine and Catholic faith (Code of Canon Law 750), that is obedience to faith (CCC 891). By such faith one must accept an infallible doctrine:

In the name of the holy Trinity, Father, Son and holy Spirit, we define, with the approval of this holy universal council of Florence, that the following truth of faith shall be believed and accepted by all Christians and thus shall all profess it: that the holy Spirit is eternally from the Father and the Son, and has his essence and his subsistent being from the Father together with the Son, and proceeds from both eternally as from one principle and a single spiration (Ecumenical Council of Florence, Session 6, 6 July 1439).

2. Religious obedience (Donum veritatis 24), not an act of faith, but religious obedience (Code of Canon Law 752), in other words, religious docility, which differs from docility in faith (CCC 892) . Such obedience had to be shown in the fifteenth century to a Church that taught without engaging in the privilege of infallibility:

The sixth is the sacrament of orders. Its matter is the object by whose handing over the order is conferred. So the priesthood is bestowed by the handing over of a chalice with wine and a paten with bread; the diaconate by the giving of the book of the gospels; the subdiaconate by the handing over of an empty chalice with an empty paten on it; and similarly for the other orders by allotting things connected with their ministry (Ecumenical Council of Florence, Session 8, 22 November 1439).

We must not believe that:

The sixth is the sacrament of orders. Its matter is the object by whose handing over the order is conferred. So the priesthood is bestowed by the handing over of a chalice with wine and a paten with bread... (Ecumenical Council of Florence, Session 8, 22 November 1439).

Why not allowed? Pius XII infallibly taught:

Wherefore, after invoking the divine light, We of Our Apostolic Authority and from certain knowledge declare, and as far as may be necessary decree and provide: that the matter, and the only matter, of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy is the imposition of hands... (Pius XII, Sacramentum Ordinis 4).