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Les Crispi
35

Cognitive Dissonance is Cognitive Cowardice

Trads pre Bergoglio:

Vatican 2 was a disaster, a modernist disfigurement of the True Church. But unless the pope teaches things heretical, or non-dogmatic, we have to live with him no matter how bad he is.

Trads with Bergoglio:

Vatican 2 was a disaster, a modernist disfigurement of the True Church. Though Bergoglio has said and taught very heretical things, though he is the emobidment of everything we've said we were against, though he has worshipped a literal demon in the Vatican itself, we can't call him a heretic until the same modernists we despise call him one.

COWARDS
Rand Miller
Why pretend you aren't able to recognize heresy? From John XX111 to the present is more than clear.
Les Crispi
Who's pretending?
Rand Miller
I wasn't referring to you.
Les Crispi
Oh Ok. Well, a lot of Trads out there are afraid of the truth. They talk a good game, they talk about Jesus, they talk about Truth. But they actually prefer the way things are. If the Church is run by a heretic they look like heroes. That's my theory, anyway.
Les Crispi
Isn't it odd how you criticize Bergoglio and the demons jump down your throat? Why ? Seriously, look at the storm of crap VRS unloaded on me.
Apparently since my premise is that we've not had a heretical pope under V2 except "Francis" and that Trads won't call him out, I have to be told that JP2 was a heretic, which is a red herring. For, even if JP2 is a heretic, which I don't believe he is, …More
Isn't it odd how you criticize Bergoglio and the demons jump down your throat? Why ? Seriously, look at the storm of crap VRS unloaded on me.
Apparently since my premise is that we've not had a heretical pope under V2 except "Francis" and that Trads won't call him out, I have to be told that JP2 was a heretic, which is a red herring. For, even if JP2 is a heretic, which I don't believe he is, but even so, BERGOGLIO is a heretic.

BUt nothing from the good Trads except venom.

Trads are cowards. They'll go after dead men, dead popes, won't go after a man who is the sum of everyrthing they claimed was wrong with the Church- and worse.

Maybe in 20 years when Bergoglio is long gone I can get a Trad to condemn Bergolio as a heretic right now.

Because that's what he is.
Mathathias Maccabeus
No one is jumping down your throat for criticizing the pope. They are jumping down your throat for you immature and trollish behavior.

If you want people to not look at you and treat you like a child stomping his feet around you should stop acting like a boomer you Karen 😂
Les Crispi
Hmm, I'm not calling anyone Karen, I'm not calling anyone a boomer, I'm not using emojis (talk about immature), I'm disagreeing with someone and someone can't handle it. That's all.

Cognitive dissonance, projection, narcissism. All because I said what obviously is true: Trads simultaneously claim fidelity to the truth church but love them some Pope Francis. They defend him every chance they get. …More
Hmm, I'm not calling anyone Karen, I'm not calling anyone a boomer, I'm not using emojis (talk about immature), I'm disagreeing with someone and someone can't handle it. That's all.

Cognitive dissonance, projection, narcissism. All because I said what obviously is true: Trads simultaneously claim fidelity to the truth church but love them some Pope Francis. They defend him every chance they get.

I'm sorry you're like this. I'd recommend a book for you to read, but something tells me you don't actually read books. No matter.

The point is: Bergoglio is a heretic. Denial of it is to defend him and participate in the heresy.
V.R.S.
"As I thought was implied, past popes weren't heretics"
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Just as it is implied that the present one is not a heretic.
I can point out some propositions of JPII that may be suspected of heresy. However, I have no authority to judge whether they are heretical sensu stricto or not.
Les Crispi
Oh, OK, let's say JP2 was a heretic. Full blown. How does that in any way change our current circumstance? It wouldn't. At least I'm "obsessed" with something currently going on.

But JP2 never taught anything heretical anyway. Bergoglio has. You're being childish. Stop being a coward.
V.R.S.
"But JP2 never taught anything heretical anyway"
--
Is claiming that heretical sects open a way for communion of saints not heretical (Ut unum sint)? Maybe.
Les Crispi
Nope.
V.R.S.
@Les Crispi
As far as I see you have a Protestant vision of Jesus and salvation.
Les Crispi
@v.r.s. as far as I see, you're spewing venom out of some desire to defend Bergoglio. And you're as Catholic as he is. Pretend Catholic. Upset that I think Bergie is a heretic.

Isn't that odd? You're comfortable going after dead men, but for a guy accomplishing the modernist vision of V2, you're attacking me.
V.R.S.
@Les Crispi
I only show you your miserable pride and limited view of reality.
Les Crispi
@.v.r.s. I have zero pride. And reality is what you're stubbornly refusing to acknowledge. Which proves my thesis. Trads today are cowards.

Off you go.
Mathathias Maccabeus
“I have zero pride!” Is a sign you are prideful you troll 😂😂😂
Les Crispi
@Mathathias Maccabeus No, "I have zero pride" is a sign I answered this man's accusation. I see you still practice projection.
Mathathias Maccabeus
Ok boomer
Mathathias Maccabeus
😂
Les Crispi
@Mathathias Maccabeus I'm not a boomer, something else you're wrong about. I like how super duper smart "Trads" who claim to read a lot of books dissolve into 3rd graders in the face of disagreement. Total sham. You're not a sham Catholic. Anyway, thanks for the chat.
Mathathias Maccabeus
What are you, a Martian?
Boomers are like Karen’s. It’s a state of mind.

I was willing to have a conversation. I was even willing to cite sources, you know, what people usually do when in an honest conversation? And then you threw a fit and said you don’t want any sources that don’t fit your narrative 😂
Les Crispi
You weren't willing to "have a conversation", you were telling me I was wrong in a not so subtle condescending tone.

But you refuse to even admit Bergoglio is a heretic, so there's no point of conversing with someone who doesn't believe a man who proclaims there is no hell isn't a heretic.

It's not my narrative, it's yours . You suffer from cognitive dissonance, which, by gum, is the title of …More
You weren't willing to "have a conversation", you were telling me I was wrong in a not so subtle condescending tone.

But you refuse to even admit Bergoglio is a heretic, so there's no point of conversing with someone who doesn't believe a man who proclaims there is no hell isn't a heretic.

It's not my narrative, it's yours . You suffer from cognitive dissonance, which, by gum, is the title of this post.

I'm sorry I fractured your ego, but until you accept certain realities about the man who claims to be pope, everything you attempt to prove is meaningless. And a waste of my time. And yours.

So run along and troll someone else. Thank you.
Mathathias Maccabeus
“You refuse to accept my judgment so there is no point in having a conversation about whether my judgment is right.” 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Mathathias Maccabeus
My goodness, why haven’t I thought of that tactic before? 😂😂😂😂😂😂
V.R.S.
Bergoglio-obsessed trads:
see problems only in words of Bergoglio. Unitatis redintegratio, Redemptor hominis, Ut unum sint and many other texts of former popes don't matter. Only JMB matters.

PS "Very heretical things don't exist. A proposition is heretical or not. Period.
Moreover, there are many theological censures e.g. propositio heretica, prop. haeresi proxima, prop. haeresi suspecta, …More
Bergoglio-obsessed trads:
see problems only in words of Bergoglio. Unitatis redintegratio, Redemptor hominis, Ut unum sint and many other texts of former popes don't matter. Only JMB matters.

PS "Very heretical things don't exist. A proposition is heretical or not. Period.
Moreover, there are many theological censures e.g. propositio heretica, prop. haeresi proxima, prop. haeresi suspecta, prop. haeresi favens, prop. erronea, prop. temeraria, prop. scandalosa, prop. piarum aurium offensiva, prop. male sonans.
Who are you to decide that the given proposition is heretical sensu stricto?
Les Crispi
Bless you. Of course I'm obsessed with Catholicism, with Jesus. As one I find it repugnant that Bergoglio deigns to call himself the Vicar of Christ.

As I thought was implied, past V2 popes weren't heretics. As bad as they were they never taught that Jesus wasn't God, Mary wasn't special, hell doesn't exist, adultery isn't a sin, etc.

Secondly, if you don't like adjectives, I have another for …More
Bless you. Of course I'm obsessed with Catholicism, with Jesus. As one I find it repugnant that Bergoglio deigns to call himself the Vicar of Christ.

As I thought was implied, past V2 popes weren't heretics. As bad as they were they never taught that Jesus wasn't God, Mary wasn't special, hell doesn't exist, adultery isn't a sin, etc.

Secondly, if you don't like adjectives, I have another for you. There is no such thing as a "traditional" Catholic, a "modernist" Catholic, a "Jesuit" Catholic, etc. There is One Truth, Catholicism. You're either Catholic, and believe and love Jesus, or you do not.

And I hate to tell you, but Bergoglio is a heretic and does not love Jesus.

Right now, the "leader" of the Church is JMB. I wouldn't give a hoot about him otherwise.

Stop dissembling.
V.R.S.
@Les Crispi
"As bad as they were they never taught that Jesus wasn't God"
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Really? JPII claimed publicly for example that Jesus received the fullness of the Beatific Vision on the Cross, just before His death. It follows logically from such a bold thesis that he was not God before (because as God must have had the BV).
Les Crispi
You're logic is false.
V.R.S.
@Les Crispi
"Your logic is false"
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Prove it. The Beatific Vision is seeing God (not physically it refers to immediate knowledge of God). How can God Incarnated be unable to fully see God? Only JPII and you know.
Les Crispi
Prove it? Well, for one, you need to properly understand what "fullness" means. Start with that.
V.R.S.
@Les Crispi
You claim that Jesus had not got the full Beatific Vision (i.e. knowledge of God). You can shake your hands with Bergoglio then. "Full" means nothing here - it is a sophistic, neo-modernist dissolvent just like in case of "full unity" or "full truth".
EOT because I dont talk with people that hold heretical views or views close to heresy.
Les Crispi
@v.r.s. I didn't claim that at all. You have problems seeing what is actually being said. I think that's called confirmation bias.

But to play your game. If I am a heretic for defending JP2, then you are a heretic for defending Bergoglio. Indeed, you seem to not really care about a guy who worshipped a demon, said hell doesn't exist, etc.

I feel sorry for you
V.R.S.
@Les Crispi
"But to play your game. If I am a heretic for defending JP2..."
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You cannot be a heretic for defending JPII but you can be one for sharing heretical views.
Les Crispi
@v.r.s. If I had heretical views, I'd be right with you. Interesting you attack me for attacking Bergoglio. Seems like you enjoy his pontificate.
3rd Order Postulant
There are two sides to even the thinnest pancake.