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Former FSSP superior general says Lefebvre was a sedevacantist

Fr Joseph Bisig, co-founder and first superior of the SSP (until 1988 he was a member of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X and knew Archbishop Levebvre well) said on November 24, 2018 during a lecture in Ottawa:

- Lefebvre began to embrace the idea of sedevacantism that Paul VI was not a true pope, and therefore the Chair of Peter was empty. But the archbishop held this opinion largely outside the public sphere, as most of the priests in SSPX would be scandalized.

www.catholicregister.org/item/28530-tradition…
F M Shyanguya
SSPX: How is disobedience a good thing?

I don’t see anyway around this wickedness, the commission of the primordial offense in heaven and in paradise.

And on what grounds should we discount the testimony of an eye-witness?
Alex A
Because he say it so doesn't mean it is so.
Roberto 55
There is no need to attack modernist - protestantized church, so they attack one of the only true followers of Jesus Christ - SSPX...
Scapular
Besides who could blame anyone for anything in this CONFUSION!!!! At times we are at a loss for understanding and agonisingly explore any possibility just to provide an explanation. I put the blame on the Popes for confusing the faithful.
Be Ye Separate
The agony and confusion that you write of, has led me to believe that a primary lesson we learn while on this earth, is that we humans are unable to govern ourselves. We need Almighty God as our Governor.
I think it is a complete circle, right back to Adam and Eve's being fooled by satan, that they could be more, than what Almighty God had created them to be.
All the brutal wars throughout the …More
The agony and confusion that you write of, has led me to believe that a primary lesson we learn while on this earth, is that we humans are unable to govern ourselves. We need Almighty God as our Governor.
I think it is a complete circle, right back to Adam and Eve's being fooled by satan, that they could be more, than what Almighty God had created them to be.
All the brutal wars throughout the centuries, are a significant example that we humans fail at governing ourselves, we need Christ as King.
Jesus bless us, to live your Holy Teachings. Amen
Scapular
Before my second cup of coffee in the morning I am a sedevacantus!!!
Jim Dorchak
SECRET VATICAN DOCUMENT REVEAL: Acbp Lefebver was actually an alien! He was planted in the Church to reveal the corruption and 3rd secret................. Not really but as significant as the headline.
tbswv
Utter and total nonsense! Archbishop Lefebvre was not by any stretch a sedevacantist. He was one of the council fathers at VII and actually signed off on some of the VII documents. He later ranted of course but to accuse the man of this is absurd. This Fr Joseph Bisig has an agenda no doubt.
Dr Bobus
My first year at the Angelicum was 1986-87. At the beginning of the Spring semester two English ex-seminarians from Econe were in our class who had just left Econe. Cardinal Ratzinger had arranged for a house (and chaplain) for them. One told me that they had decided to leave because Abp LeFebvre had given a homily saying the Chair of Peter was vacant. He added that LeF was surrounded by some …More
My first year at the Angelicum was 1986-87. At the beginning of the Spring semester two English ex-seminarians from Econe were in our class who had just left Econe. Cardinal Ratzinger had arranged for a house (and chaplain) for them. One told me that they had decided to leave because Abp LeFebvre had given a homily saying the Chair of Peter was vacant. He added that LeF was surrounded by some hard people (probably, IMHO because of the suspensus a divinis).

Some years ago he was ordained for an English diocese and is fairly well known in his home country. He is also still a friend.
philosopher
Again, Dr. Bobus this is only hearsay. Did they provide you with a transcript of the homily?

I can equally attest that I personally know 4 SSPX seminarians who have assured me that they are being taught in their SSPX seminary education that Sedevacantism is a heretical position and not Catholic doctrine but is to be condemned.
Dr Bobus
This is not a court of law. I'm simply telling you what a friend told me. I have no reason to doubt him, and apparently neither did Cardinal Ratzinger.

BTW, I used to teach with Fr Bisig.
Ultraviolet
Courts of law are designed to prevent exactly the sort of injustices hearsay create. So is critical thinking. Supposedly you enjoy poisoning other people's dogs. I'm simply telling you what a friend told me. I have no reason to doubt him, so by your standards of proof, it's reasonable to assume the claim is true. :P
Caroline03
Is that because Abp Lefebvre received a "note" from Paul VI in 1988 (NB. long after he had died) requesting that Abp Lefebvre should " Consecrate Many Bishops" 😊

Mgr Lefebvre témoigne du mandat de Paul VI

That is not talked about much by people as it would no doubt create a bit of a problem if true 😊

I'm siting here wondering whether Benedict is still Pope, which explains what has gone wrong …More
Is that because Abp Lefebvre received a "note" from Paul VI in 1988 (NB. long after he had died) requesting that Abp Lefebvre should " Consecrate Many Bishops" 😊

Mgr Lefebvre témoigne du mandat de Paul VI

That is not talked about much by people as it would no doubt create a bit of a problem if true 😊

I'm siting here wondering whether Benedict is still Pope, which explains what has gone wrong since Benedict wrote his resignation note. Whilst others say we haven't had a Pope since Pope Pius XII. Some say Cardinal Siri was elected Pope at the Conclave in 1958 but resigned under duress ( I presume that there are no reports of his having signed some notes since he is said to have died.) 😊......and now here is ANOTHER Pope rumoured to have not died - in fact, Incredible as it seems, there are some who say that Paul VI may still be alive today..Forgive my levity.... But there is something humorous in the thought that Paul VI might one day return sporting a long grey beard & Latin Chasuable..... ..with a copy of the true third secret under his arm.😀

If God wanted to allow someone to live to well over 100, it is completely possible that they will do - especially if they attend a Mass where there is a validly Consecrated Eucharistic Host. - since the Saints lived for YEARS on one Consecrated Host, and showed no signs of dying whatsoever..(ie Marie Julie Jahenny, Blessed Anne Emmerich, Blessed Elena Aiello, St Gemma Galgani.....etc....etc.....)

But it is not usual for people to live over 100 today, but according to Scripture it can be seen that Abraham and Moses and of course Methuselah, gained a much longer life than any us today for ALL people work out, jog, go to Gyms and eat nothing but lettuce all day trying to preserve their life.....

Anyway, re: The note allegedly signed by Paul VI - if an impostor wrote it, it can still be said that after receiving it in 1988 Abp Lefebvre DID in fact Consecrate 4 Bishops. Perhaps this explains why! Any orders that JPII gave him he would not take much notice of since it was unlikely that he was validly elected if Pope Paul VI was still well enough to send his Bishops notes.... 😊
JeanBaptiste
He is alive for sure =)
Caroline03
@JeanBaptiste Hi Jean Baptiste, Yes I know you say Paul VI is alive. Since he was born in 1897 he has a birthday soon and will be 123. Still, that is possible, According to this webpage - a man has recently died who said he was146!

globalnews.ca/…/man-who-claimed…

Another woman died not long ago at 135 and people are alive at this moment who are almost 120 - so we can live to greater ages …More
@JeanBaptiste Hi Jean Baptiste, Yes I know you say Paul VI is alive. Since he was born in 1897 he has a birthday soon and will be 123. Still, that is possible, According to this webpage - a man has recently died who said he was146!

globalnews.ca/…/man-who-claimed…

Another woman died not long ago at 135 and people are alive at this moment who are almost 120 - so we can live to greater ages if we don't eat much, live basic lives, exist on grains, pasta, rice etc.....

But, if Paul VI is still alive. We need him to put an end to Vatican Council II 😊

Are there any photographs, eye witness accounts, shared one-to-one conversations with him, in fact any absolute evidence that it's indeed true?

and what happened to the note received by Abp Lefebvre in 1988

I await your response.
God Bless you - I respect your Traditional attitude - keep the Faith.
Sincerely in Christ Jesus
JeanBaptiste
Hello Caroline.

I am happy to see that some English speaking people are interested in the "Paul VI thesis", since it is rather rare. I need your prayers for I have many trials currently, and the fact I openly defend Paul VI's survival has been a problem from my daily life, for instance in the professional life.

Some time before Archbishop Lefebvre died, in the Canon of the Mass, he prayed for "…More
Hello Caroline.

I am happy to see that some English speaking people are interested in the "Paul VI thesis", since it is rather rare. I need your prayers for I have many trials currently, and the fact I openly defend Paul VI's survival has been a problem from my daily life, for instance in the professional life.

Some time before Archbishop Lefebvre died, in the Canon of the Mass, he prayed for "the true Pope". He did not say "Paul VI", but "the true Pope", for he had no certainty regarding Paul VI's survival. He was not sedevacantist, he knew that sedevacantism was not consistent with the Church doctrine related to the perpetuity of Apostolic succession.

I know a priest who has seen Paul VI alive in 2007, in Fatima, and I will tell you about that in a private message...

God bless you too.

In Christo
Caroline03
@JeanBaptiste @Salmo143 Send it to Archbishop Vigano or talk on Dr Taylor Marshalls show if there's evidence. Keep the Faith.
JeanBaptiste
Where can I contact them? It is rather hard to convince people.
Ultraviolet
Normally, hearsay evidence is not admissable in court. If it's true, it wouldn't be too much of a shock.
W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
The remission of the excommunication has the same aim as that of the punishment: namely, to invite the four Bishops once more to return (www.vatican.va/…/hf_ben-xvi_let_…).
F M Shyanguya
@W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
Thank you for going to and sharing source documents.

“The remission of the excommunication was a measure taken in the field of ecclesiastical discipline: the individuals were freed from the burden of conscience constituted by the most serious of ecclesiastical penalties. This disciplinary level needs to be distinguished from the doctrinal level. The fact that the …More
@W obronie Tradycji Kościoła
Thank you for going to and sharing source documents.

“The remission of the excommunication was a measure taken in the field of ecclesiastical discipline: the individuals were freed from the burden of conscience constituted by the most serious of ecclesiastical penalties. This disciplinary level needs to be distinguished from the doctrinal level. The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons. As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church. There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved. In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.”
F M Shyanguya
How articulate Pope BXVI:

“This will make it clear that the problems now to be addressed are essentially doctrinal in nature and concern primarily the acceptance of the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar magisterium of the Popes. The collegial bodies with which the Congregation studies questions which arise (especially the ordinary Wednesday meeting of Cardinals and the annual or …More
How articulate Pope BXVI:

“This will make it clear that the problems now to be addressed are essentially doctrinal in nature and concern primarily the acceptance of the Second Vatican Council and the post-conciliar magisterium of the Popes. The collegial bodies with which the Congregation studies questions which arise (especially the ordinary Wednesday meeting of Cardinals and the annual or biennial Plenary Session) ensure the involvement of the Prefects of the different Roman Congregations and representatives from the world’s Bishops in the process of decision-making. The Church’s teaching authority cannot be frozen in the year 1962 – this must be quite clear to the Society. But some of those who put themselves forward as great defenders of the Council also need to be reminded that Vatican II embraces the entire doctrinal history of the Church. Anyone who wishes to be obedient to the Council has to accept the faith professed over the centuries, and cannot sever the roots from which the tree draws its life.”
One more comment from F M Shyanguya
F M Shyanguya
Superb! Succinctly answers what is true ecumenism and us & Muslims [and others] worshipping the same God, albeit having different images of him

“Leading men and women to God, to the God who speaks in the Bible: this is the supreme and fundamental priority of the Church and of the Successor of Peter at the present time. A logical consequence of this is that we must have at heart the unity …More
Superb! Succinctly answers what is true ecumenism and us & Muslims [and others] worshipping the same God, albeit having different images of him

“Leading men and women to God, to the God who speaks in the Bible: this is the supreme and fundamental priority of the Church and of the Successor of Peter at the present time. A logical consequence of this is that we must have at heart the unity of all believers. Their disunity, their disagreement among themselves, calls into question the credibility of their talk of God. Hence the effort to promote a common witness by Christians to their faith – ecumenism – is part of the supreme priority. Added to this is the need for all those who believe in God to join in seeking peace, to attempt to draw closer to one another, and to journey together, even with their differing images of God, towards the source of Light – this is interreligious dialogue. Whoever proclaims that God is Love "to the end" has to bear witness to love: in loving devotion to the suffering, in the rejection of hatred and enmity – this is the social dimension of the Christian faith, of which I spoke in the Encyclical Deus Caritas Est.”
philosopher
As Ultraviolet pointed out this is mere hearsay! Its just an opinion with no evidence, such as a voice or video recording of an actual conversation. Also, many times theologians like philosophers pose thought experiments and oposing viewpoints to speculate and debate. In the course of such a discussion with bishop A and Father b, just b/c bishop A floats out ideas which are not actually held by …More
As Ultraviolet pointed out this is mere hearsay! Its just an opinion with no evidence, such as a voice or video recording of an actual conversation. Also, many times theologians like philosophers pose thought experiments and oposing viewpoints to speculate and debate. In the course of such a discussion with bishop A and Father b, just b/c bishop A floats out ideas which are not actually held by bishop A (his true position is evidenced by his public statements and writings) and Father B, who later takes one of the possible speculative points that was discussed by bishop A and then goes to the press or media interviews, after the death of bishop A (in which A cannot give a clarification or rebuttal to the intentional misrepresentation of the dialogue) to give his opinion on some point of speculation x that bishop A made as being his own actual belief is in no way any valid proof that bishop A actually holds position x.

It's as if one takes the arguments of St. Thomas Aquinas or Duns Scotus' preliminary formulations of opposing viewpoints that where at times better articulated than the heterodoxes who actually held those positions, then next asserting that Aquinas and Scotus are heretics because they stated the heterox position. What is intentionally left out is the final points made that refute and dismiss the heretical position and dismiss the actual orthodox positions held by Aqinas and Scotus.

This analogy can also be applied to Archbishop Lefebvre. A good recourse for Lefebvre's true positions citing primary source docs is Micheal Davies Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre. The man was a solidly orthodox Catholic to the core!
Dr Bobus
Where did you study philosophy?
philosopher
@Dr. Bobus I studied philosophy and sociology at Univ of St. Thomas- Houston. John Deely was my metaphysics prof.
Dr Bobus
How did the sophistry of sociology weigh against philosophy?
philosopher
@Dr. Bobus I suppose it all depends, (like philosophy that has it's own share of sophistry), on the sociologist and their philosophical assumptions about the nature of being, epistemology, and human nature. There is a profound difference between the sociology of the positivist, structuralists, i.e. Comte, Marx, Saussure, Levi Strauss, and Lacan, the post-structuralist, i.e. Barthes, Derrida, and …More
@Dr. Bobus I suppose it all depends, (like philosophy that has it's own share of sophistry), on the sociologist and their philosophical assumptions about the nature of being, epistemology, and human nature. There is a profound difference between the sociology of the positivist, structuralists, i.e. Comte, Marx, Saussure, Levi Strauss, and Lacan, the post-structuralist, i.e. Barthes, Derrida, and Faucault (most of these guys are in addition to being sociologists also philosophers albeit poor ones), and the social realism of Christopher Dawson, Joseph Pieper (yes, this great Thomist was also a sociologist), and J. Messner (another great German post WW2 Thomist who also was a sociologist concerned with grasping the essence of society). So, I'm in the realist camp, probably no surprise to you.

I did find Fr. Benedict Ratzinger's two books: Without Roots: The West, Relativism, Christianity and Islam, and Values in a Time of Upheaval, plus his dialogues with Habermas to rely and utilize sociological data for his arguments.
Dr Bobus
You're saying Josef Pieper was a sociologist?

Certainly, man is a social creature because he has rational faculties, and certain aspects of that can be studied. That does not, however, put JP in the same area as Comte, Weber, Marx, et al. The material object (human society) is the same for all, but the formal object (obiectum formale et quod et quo) are different.

Due to the aforementioned, I …More
You're saying Josef Pieper was a sociologist?

Certainly, man is a social creature because he has rational faculties, and certain aspects of that can be studied. That does not, however, put JP in the same area as Comte, Weber, Marx, et al. The material object (human society) is the same for all, but the formal object (obiectum formale et quod et quo) are different.

Due to the aforementioned, I don't think a Catholic philospher can proceed, beginning with society (or politics).

Ted McCarrick, late of the College of Cardinals, has a PhD in Sociology.

There was interest in Habermas among post WWII Catholic intellectuals because he was, like certain others, moving away from his Marxist roots--IMHO, he never really abandoned them.

I have never heard of a Thomist named J Messmer (my doctorate is in Thomistic Studies). The only two German Thomists I know of are Martin Grabmann and Pieper. Grabmann was a well known, mostly for philosophy. Pieper still is going strong, although his lectures on Hope leave me scratching my head--I don't think they reflect Thomas' thought. It's curious that Germany, with his love and respect for learning, never produced a Thomist the equal of Ramirez or Garrigou LaGrange. Probably their discomfort with analogy is a major factor.

BTW, it's orientEm not orientUm.
Ultraviolet
It's always a treat to watch two people who are, in point of fact, better ecucated than I am get into a technical debate I can follow. The 3-D glasses make your interchange even better. Proceed, gentlemen. :)
F M Shyanguya
Well, well, well, ...
philosopher
@F M Shyanguya don't get too excited my friend with the "ah hah now I got you" sentiment. Your equivacating policy with doctrine. The pastoral policy administration of the Churches outreach to modern man aka ecumenism, collegiality, etc., is only policy not doctrine.

True ecumenism is dialoguing with Muslims and Protestants and neo-pagans charitably with the intended goal of converting them …More
@F M Shyanguya don't get too excited my friend with the "ah hah now I got you" sentiment. Your equivacating policy with doctrine. The pastoral policy administration of the Churches outreach to modern man aka ecumenism, collegiality, etc., is only policy not doctrine.

True ecumenism is dialoguing with Muslims and Protestants and neo-pagans charitably with the intended goal of converting them to Christ and His Church. This does not include hand holding, joint prayer services and ice cream socials with no intended goals of bringing them into the one true faith.
F M Shyanguya
@philosopher, are you a member of the SSPX?
philosopher
There are no lay members in the SSPX priestly order. There are some consecrated religious brothers and nuns associated with their apostolic work. Some lay people do register with one of the orders chapels as supporters. I belong to a diocesan parish that offers the Usus Antiquior mass in addition to the Novus Ordo albeit in the traditional mode - ad Orientum and kneeling on the tongue.

I do also…More
There are no lay members in the SSPX priestly order. There are some consecrated religious brothers and nuns associated with their apostolic work. Some lay people do register with one of the orders chapels as supporters. I belong to a diocesan parish that offers the Usus Antiquior mass in addition to the Novus Ordo albeit in the traditional mode - ad Orientum and kneeling on the tongue.

I do also support any Catholic order that is orthodox, does not reject the pope and the universal Magisterium and the Apostolic Deposit of Faith.
That would include the SSPX, the FSSPS, and everywhere that a priest celebrates the Tridentine mass. I do not deny the Mass of Paul VI is valid nor in being in communion with orthodox Catholics who for various reasons attend the Novus Ordo.
F M Shyanguya
Just learned something about the society that I didn’t know. Thank you.

God bless you and yours and his work at your hands.
philosopher
Thanks, please pray that the SSPX's irregular situation is resolved and their original full Canonical faculties are restored.
F M Shyanguya
Wow! Charity for one’s brethren shown right there!

I will!

I will specifically remember the society during this part

V /. Oremus pro unitate apostolatus.

R /. Ut omnes unum sint, sicut tu Pater in me et ego in te: ut sint unum, sicut et nos unum sumus.

V /. Omne regnum divisum contra se, desolábitur.


R /. Et omnis cívitas vel domus divisa contra se non statbit.

when I pray daily:

- Opus …More
Wow! Charity for one’s brethren shown right there!

I will!

I will specifically remember the society during this part

V /. Oremus pro unitate apostolatus.

R /. Ut omnes unum sint, sicut tu Pater in me et ego in te: ut sint unum, sicut et nos unum sumus.

V /. Omne regnum divisum contra se, desolábitur.


R /. Et omnis cívitas vel domus divisa contra se non statbit.

when I pray daily:

- Opus Dei Preces

I believe this exchange has borne fruit. Thank you @philosopher.
F M Shyanguya
@philosopher
“That would include the SSPX,”

You can’t be doing that.
philosopher
@F M Shyanguya Its not that simple, not all excommunications in the history of the Church have been valid or just as arguably in this case, where the defect of motivation being a tool to silence criticism of how the bishops at the time (1988) were implementing the policies of Vatican 2, one could even argue as revenge against or punishment of Lefebvre for not going along with the changes and …More
@F M Shyanguya Its not that simple, not all excommunications in the history of the Church have been valid or just as arguably in this case, where the defect of motivation being a tool to silence criticism of how the bishops at the time (1988) were implementing the policies of Vatican 2, one could even argue as revenge against or punishment of Lefebvre for not going along with the changes and refusing to celebrate the new mass, and beginning a new traditional seminary; nor does excommunication prevent one from purgatory or heaven by the Grace of their baptism.

It's true, Lefebvre consecrated 4 bishops without permission but he did not do so with the intention of breaking from the Church but out of a belief in a crisis of modernity that was having an effect of the life of the Church, which is allowed under Canon Law. You may disagree as to whether there was or is a state of crisis but there need not be an official crisis declared by the Pope in order for an actual crisis to exist, which is not a requirement under CanonLaw. A crisis can in actuality exist and be ignored by eclessiastics. The main issue is whether Lefebvre believed it and acted for the good of saving souls. If So, this is a benevolent, not a malicious intent and action. We can not read his conscience or judge the man, but can only leave him to wisdom and mercy of God.
F M Shyanguya
For the faithful, until the Church decides.

PS Just finished my PM prayers and I prayed for the Society.
Dr Bobus
Excommunication can be legal without being moral. IMHO, this was the case with Lefebvre, who was persecuted by Paul VI and his lackeys. The Montini policy itself separated Latinitas from Romanitas--L was just following the policy, but in reverse order.
F M Shyanguya
SSPX: How is disobedience a good thing?

With this from their own mouths, everything else is wicked rationalization and explanation.