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"Francis Is Completely Out of Touch with Reality and Out of Date" - Interview

Evil powers recognise that the best way to undermine the Catholic Church is to undermine the Roman rite, the English barrister James Bogle, the former president of Una Voce International, told Gloria.tv. The interview.

The first comments on Traditionis Custodes spoke of “scandal”, “atomic bomb”, “cruelty”, “hatred for the Latin Mass”. Even the French charismatic Father Daniel Ange spoke of a “harshness without a shred of mercy or compassion”. What is your reaction?

I tend to agree. It seems a pointless and over-hasty exercise and highly unpastoral.

You are a barrister. What is the legal valuation of Traditionis Custodes?

I am not a canon lawyer but there are several oddities with it. For instance, there is no transition period such as is normal in such legal decrees. There are also other inconsistencies, many of which have been analysed by various organisations like the Latin Mass Society, such as its abolition of the distinction between ordinary and extraordinary, and its claim that it is the only form of the Roman rite.

A revealing part of Traditionis Custodes is its title. “Custodes” (“Guardians”) also means “jailers”. Will tradition, from now on, be trapped in Francis’ cage?

Well, possibly for the time being but not forever. I think the claim to be guarding tradition is so inapposite that most Catholics, even those not enamoured of the traditional rite, consider the title and the document to be unnecessary and even something of a mockery of proper pastoral care, so much so that I think no-one is really treating it seriously and find it unseemly that popes keep favouring and then disfavouring the traditional rites like some political football.

In Costa Rican dioceses, in the Archdiocese of Ribeirao Preto, Brazil, and in only some other dioceses, all Roman Masses were suppressed. How is the situation in England?

The situation is far better in England. Only one diocese in the whole country has suppressed all celebration of the traditional Roman rite and that is Clifton Diocese where the Bishop is the notoriously heterodox and dictatorial Declan Lang. Otherwise, most bishops have quickly given the necessary permissions to carry on with the status quo.

Francis wants all Catholics to change to the Novus Ordo and to sing the Requiem Mass for the Roman Rite. He must know that such a wish is illusionary. Why does he still try?

I think, Francis is completely out of touch with reality and with the needs and desires of ordinary Catholics. He is more interested in cutting a popular figure on the world stage, particularly with the secularists who are largely enemies of the Catholic Church. It is an unprecedented situation in the history of the Church.

The Roman Rite is one of two dozen liturgical rites in the Church. All Modernist “criticisms” against the Roman Rite could also be made against the Byzantine Liturgy and others about which nobody seems to worry. Why?

These changes are clearly being influenced by the evil powers who recognise that the best way to undermine the Catholic Church is to undermine the Roman rite which is the most populous rite and the rite attended by the most influential of Catholics. For that reason, it is their primary focus.

The Novus Ordo exists in a thousand variants and with its “different options” is not even a proper rite. Additionally, facing the people, Communion in the hand etc which are not part of the Novus Ordo have become dogmas, and there are myriads of other novelties, abuses, and sacrileges but Francis still calls it the “unique expression of the Roman Rite”. Does this make sense?

No, it does not - even to those who do not like the traditional Roman rite. This is something of a last-ditch attempt to secure the future of the Bugninian-Pauline liturgy of 1970, which has been such a dismal failure, in the face of the exponential growth of the traditional Roman rite, particularly among young people. But it will be as entirely futile a gesture as trying to hold back the tide. Thanks to Pope Benedict XVI releasing the traditional Roman rite form a kind of Babylonish captivity for 50 years, there is now no turning back. The traditional movement is a young person's movement, and they are the future.

Francis accuses Catholics in his accompanying letter to TC of denying the validity of the Novus Ordo and of Vatican II although not even the Society of Saint Pius X denies the validity of the Novus Ordo, nor does it refute the Pastoral Council in toto. Why does Francis use false accusations?

This is more evidence that Francis is completely out of touch and out of date. He is living in the 1960s when all sorts of mendacious nonsense were spread around about those who prefer the Roman rite. Those days are long gone and anyone with any knowledge of the subject knows that traditionalists do not deny the validity of either the Bugninian-Pauline rite of 1970 or the Vatican Council. They simply say that the traditional Roman rite is better - as, indeed, it is, being hallowed by time, by popes and councils, by saints and martyrs and by the Faithful, for nearly 2,000 years.

Suddenly, Francis is talking a lot about “Church unity” although he consistently favours the Modernist party over the Catholics. Reportedly (Spiegel.de) he even said that he “might go down in history for having split the Catholic Church”. What will be the legacy of Francis’ Pontificate?

The legacy of his pontificate will largely be one of confusion, disunity, capitulation to the enemies of the Church, false teaching, unreality, doctrinal compromise and "fudging", a further decrease in numbers attending church and the Sacraments, a giant step backwards, declining religious life, closures of churches, parishes and dioceses, greater corruption, more unsavoury revelations, abuse, peculation, partisan in-fighting and moral decadence.

How do you explain the enormous growth of Latin Masses in recent years?

It is the form of the Roman rite chosen and hallowed by God the Holy Spirit and thus can never be defeated, rage man or devil never so much.

Michael Brendan Dougherty wrote in the New York Times that the Novus Ordo represents a different religion. Is this true? Or shall we believe that the Roman Rite and the NO are two sides of the same medal?

The 1970 Novus Ordo is a human confection, invented by Archbishop Bugnini and his colleagues in a Swiss hotel between rich courses and fine wines, and finished off in a trattoria in Trastevere, Rome. It is not the fruit of study, fasting and penance by Catholic saints, martyrs, and doctors, nor is it the ancient rite dating back to the early Church, treasured, and guarded by popes and councils and developed and hallowed by the Holy Spirit, as the traditional Roman rite is. Accordingly, it is a creature of men whereas the traditional Roman rite is a creature of both men and God. That which has been fashioned by God has stood the test of time and will continue to do so. That which was fashioned only by men, 50 years ago, has not stood the test of time at all well and has, all too often, become a source of liturgical abuse leading to doctrinal confusion, loss of faith and a radical collapse in attendance at mass and the Sacraments. That which has been fashioned and developed by the hand of God will survive forever. That which is fashioned only by the hand of man will not. That is the simple truth of it.

Pictures: Jamie Bogle, Iota Unum talk in September, Copyright: Joseph Shaw, CC-BY-NC
giveusthisday
Wonderful interview! So knowledgeable, so clear, and far-reaching. Thank you so much!
atreverse pensar
He is in touch... what he wants.
Facts Not Lies
TLM?
ThugLifeMunchies?
Facts Not Lies
Francis seems very in touch...
But, not with Catholicism
Rather in touch with the religion of 'Woke'.
Seer3
TLM will win.
3rd Order Postulant
Mary will win. Then we all win.
Viva Cristo Rey!
Ultraviolet
Ah, but Pope Francis is very much in touch with reality and up to date. He recognizes the steady decline of the sterile Novus Ordo form and the enormouse resurgence of the Usus Antiquior, particularly among young Catholics who are the future of The Church. Traditionis Custodes is a way to rob Catholics from the ability to choose.
Facts Not Lies
@Ultraviolet... The 'Woke' need no choices. Their happiness comes when their iphone tells them to inhale and exhale and tie their shoes. No stress.

Wow Eloi?
Ultraviolet
@Facts Not Lies The Eloi are an extremely good metaphor, except the Morlocks of today don't work even when they're preying upon everyone else.

Better still, the young Catholics drawn to the Latin Mass aren't among the "Woke" and thanks be to God for that. Both the Latin Mass and even traditionalist Catholic culture are inherently opposed to the "Woke". Indirectly, you've raised another likely …More
@Facts Not Lies The Eloi are an extremely good metaphor, except the Morlocks of today don't work even when they're preying upon everyone else.

Better still, the young Catholics drawn to the Latin Mass aren't among the "Woke" and thanks be to God for that. Both the Latin Mass and even traditionalist Catholic culture are inherently opposed to the "Woke". Indirectly, you've raised another likely reason why El Francesco wishes to eliminate such a profound source of spiritual strength.
Jan Joseph
Uitstekend verhaal.