Francis Calls HAVING Nuclear Weapons “Immoral,” Wants to Write This in Catechism

Nuclear weapons are “immoral,” Francis said at the press conference during his November 26 flight from Japan to Rome. He added that “this has to go into the Catechism.” According to Francis, the …
@mattsixteen24 Not according to current teachings. Check Paragraph 2264, 2265 www.vatican.va/…/p3s2c2a5.htm
CatMuse
Thank you Ultraviolet
This is a little odd...
"2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65"
It makes a state…More
Thank you Ultraviolet
This is a little odd...
"2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65"
It makes a statement about the killing of the innocent and the conflates it with the killing of an aggressor. Furthermore, the killing of the aggressor is always intended in State executions. Certainly also in issues of self defence I may intend to kill the aggressor to preserve my own life or the life of those to which I have care. When you look to the "65" reference for clarity there is none.
I believe, CatMuse, it is not a conflation as much as a very precise distinction. Intentional killing of an innocent is different from intentional killing as by-product of legitimate defense. Intention, while notoriously difficult to prove in a legal context, is central to how The Church addresses the issue of self-defense.

The murder of an innocent has, naturally, death as its intended outco…More
I believe, CatMuse, it is not a conflation as much as a very precise distinction. Intentional killing of an innocent is different from intentional killing as by-product of legitimate defense. Intention, while notoriously difficult to prove in a legal context, is central to how The Church addresses the issue of self-defense.

The murder of an innocent has, naturally, death as its intended outcome. Legitimate defense, however, does not. The intent of a legitimate defense is to preserve one's own life (and by extension those one seeks to protect), nothing further. That last point is vitally important. If, while securing that intent, the aggressor dies it was not deliberately sought out. The agressor's death was never intended.

Let's see if I can clarify the two. Think back to the original story in Genesis, Cain beat Abel to death. Definitely an intentional killing. Cain wanted Abel dead.

Now suppose Moshe decides to kill Cain over a land dispute. Moshe botches the job and Cain hits Moshe on the head with a staff. Moshe get knocked out. Cain's intent is to protect himself. He isn't trying to kill Moshe, he's trying to stop Moshe. If Moshe dies as the result of that blow, the death is unintentional. Under those circumstances, Cain would be blameless according to CCC 2263/ 2264.

Now let's suppose every time Moshe crawls dazedly to his hands and knees, Cain smashes Moshe over the head as hard as he can. Depending on where Cain lives, this might be entirely legal. Cain is "standing his ground".

Cain's fast-talking attorney would argue Cain was still "in fear of his life" and believed Moshe was attempting to "continue the attack", etc. etc.

The reality, of course, is Cain was murderously angry at being attacked and very deliberately set out to kill Moshe once he (Cain) gained the upper hand.

The city prosecutor, looking over the specifics of the law and the vague circumstances of the case, doesn't prosecute. Cain walks.This might be legal, but it goes against the teachings of The Church.

"Furthermore, the killing of the aggressor is always intended in State executions."

...for the subject of the death penalty,, see Paragraph 2267.

"Certainly also in issues of self defence I may intend to kill the aggressor to preserve my own life or the life of those to which I have care."

As a private citizen, according to the Catechism, that's a no-no.

You should not intend to kill an aggressor or anyone else. Unintentionally killing someone during self-defense and deliberately intending to kill someone from the outset are entirely different intentions.

Paragraph 2265 addresses those in professions where they are responsible for the lives of others, i.e. police and military, hence the explicit reference to "the defense of the common good".

A husband, say, protecting his family is not defending "the common good", merely his own. This is made even more clear in the final sentence. "For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility."

Private citizens do not, outside of some extraordinarily specific circumstances, legitimately hold any authority whatsoever.

Likewise, they haven't been entrusted with or given the responsibility to "to repel aggressors against the civil community". This paragraph is clearly aimed at those in such professions (or perhaps drafted into them).

Simply put, this paragraph isn't for Mr. NRA who just realized he can legally mag-dump his shiny new Sig Sauer "Molon Labe" .45 handgun into someone's else's head.

Secular law might side with him, but the Church's teachings are firmly opposed to this, both in action and intent. The Catechism is focuses on the true facts of what happened. What a person knows, truly, in their heart.

Not what they told everyone else, not the story their clever criminal lawyer told the police, or even whatever justifications they self-righteously talk themselves into half-believing. The Church is addressing why they really did what they did,
CatMuse
Thank you, that was enlightening.
Francis "fixing" the Catechism. Utterly terrifying thought.
Dr Bobus
1. Nuclear bombs have been used in civil engineering projects, e.g., excavation.

2. The US has conventional weapons that are more destructive than certain nuclear bombs.
Ultraviolet likes this.
Prayhard
Sidomy and theft are sins, Jorge, not the nonsense you slather.
AgentRose
Venerable Sheen said, “He (Satan) will set up a counterchurch which will be the ape of the Church, because he, the Devil, is the ape of God. It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content. It will be a mystical body of the Antichrist that will in all externals resemble the mystical body of Christ.”[1]

[1]
Communism and the Consci…More
Venerable Sheen said, “He (Satan) will set up a counterchurch which will be the ape of the Church, because he, the Devil, is the ape of God. It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content. It will be a mystical body of the Antichrist that will in all externals resemble the mystical body of Christ.”[1]

[1]
Communism and the Conscience of the West), 24.
DEFENSA DE LA FE likes this.
Is Jorge of the Pachamamas also going to include the Pachamamas in the catechism???
St Michael the Archangel defend us in battle
Ultraviolet likes this.
advoluntas@aol.com likes this.
It's no different than the gun argument. Basically, it's immoral to defend yourself or your nation. Be defenseless.
Eva
If nukes are mortal or venial sins depend on what the national conference of bishops decide.
In some pastoral situations, nukes are necessary, Amoris Laetitia says. Maybe keep using nukes for the sake of defending children.
Eva
He is talking nonsense even on the level of grammar:
"This is a Christian phenomenon that relativizes, in the sense of the word, the atomic bomb because they are two things: if one goes only to Nagasaki he says 'be Christian, the atomic bomb' and stops there."
eticacasanova and one more user like this.
eticacasanova likes this.
Mic Micson likes this.
Cantinflas is very jelous
Novella Nurney likes this.
Tesa
What about killer viruses, laser death rays and cyanide in the water supply? Will be a Long text in the Catechism instead of simply "You shall not kill"
Mic Micson likes this.
Changing the Catechism of the Catholic Church is like editing wikipedia.
Ludovic Denim and 2 more users like this.
Ludovic Denim likes this.
Ultraviolet likes this.
advoluntas@aol.com likes this.