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Society of St. Pius X “Regularization” Not as Easy as You Think

Great points made in this article... By John Vennari The September 14 letter from the Vatican to the Society of St. Pius X has launched a wave of premature celebration. Though the contents of the “…
Lionel Andrades
Monday, April 16, 2012

Msgr. Guido Pozzo could announce Vatican Council II agrees with literal interpretation of dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus while Nostra Aetate says Catholics are the ‘new people of God’ : pope made an error in Light of the World- all this is relevant to the Vatican-SSPX differences

For political reasons Ecclesia Dei is not admitting the truth about Vatican Council II.
More
Monday, April 16, 2012

Msgr. Guido Pozzo could announce Vatican Council II agrees with literal interpretation of dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus while Nostra Aetate says Catholics are the ‘new people of God’ : pope made an error in Light of the World- all this is relevant to the Vatican-SSPX differences

For political reasons Ecclesia Dei is not admitting the truth about Vatican Council II.
Msgr. Guido Pozzo Secretary of the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” – the Vatican body charged with helping to bring reconciliation with the SSPX - said “we haven’t yet received a response” but he added that the fraternity have “preannounced they will arrive at a final clarification, therefore I am hoping that at the beginning of next week we’ll be able to know their position and then take consequent positions.” (1)

NO DOCTRINAL DIFFERENCES
There are no doctrinal differences between the Vatican and the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) if Ecclesia Dei announces that Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) (2) is in agreement with the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and also with Lumen Gentium 16, Vatican Council II on invincible ignorance and those saved with a good conscience (3).

LG 16 is not an explicit exception to the dogma or AG 7.Since we do not know any case saved in invincible ignorance and a good conscience.We accept these cases as possibilities. Defacto we can never know anyone saved with a good conscience etc.They are known only in Heaven.
Secondly Nostra Aetate 4 says Catholics are the ‘new people of God’.Catholics are the Chosen People now.
These two points are in agreement with the SSPX position that all non Catholics need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation.This was the traditional teaching and it is the teaching after Vatican Council II.Msgr. Guido Pozzo needs to announce that this is the teaching of Vatican Council II according to the text and the Catholic Church.
This very message in a comment on Rorate Caeli was pulled down on April 14,2012. (4)
If Mnsgr. Guido Pozzo makes the required announcment then many people will realize that rationally there can only be one interpretation of Vatican Council on this subject. Since the former interpretation, the liberal one, assumes LG 16 etc are explicit exceptions to the dogma which says all need to convert into the Church for salvation.
The Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI wrongly assumes in Light of the World p.107 that those saved in invincible ignorance etc are known to us and so they are exceptions to the traditional understanding of the dogma.(6)

Pope Benedict XVI also approved two theological papers of the International Theological Commission (ITC) in which the same factual error has been made. The error was that Vatican Council II metnions exceptions to the traditional teaching of exclusive salvation being there only in the Catholic Church.(7)

The President of the ITC was Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, who is now the Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican.While the Secretary of the ITC was Bishop Morerod. They both represented the Vatican in talks with the SSPX. There were differences on ecumenism and other religions since the Vatican-side used a false premise (that of visible cases of the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance).So they postulated wrongly that Vatican Council II contradicts AG 7 and the dogma.They assumed that the Catholic Church has changed its teaching on other religions and ecumenism after Vatican Council II and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.

This is also the Rabbi Rosen-ADL interpretation of Vatican Council II. So for political reasons the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith may not want to make this announcement.It would be ‘peaceful’ to accept the false interpretation of Vatican Council II which is objectively wrong regarding LG 16, since physically, in real life, we cannot identify any such case saved in invincible ignorance.

Members of the SSPX and other Catholics can hold Press Conferences and peaceful demonstrations appealing to the pope to uphold Vatican Council II.
Lionel Andrades

1
www.ncregister.com/…/vatican-hoping-…

2.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, Himself a man, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim. 2:45), "neither is there salvation in any other" (Acts 4:12). Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.

3.
Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.

4.
Sunday, April 15, 2012

RORATE CAELI PULLS DOWN COMMENT: 'WHY CANNOT ALL CARDINALS,BISHOPS, RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES AFFIRM THE LITERAL INTERPRETATION OF THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS AND ALSO IMPLICIT BAPTISM OF DESIRE AND BEING SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE'
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/rorate-caeli-pu…

6.
Pope Benedict XVI’s objective,factual error in Light of the World(Ignatius) p.107 is contributing to widespread liberalism and dissent in the Catholic Church.
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/Light%20of%20th…

7.
International Theological Commission (ITC) makes an objective, factual error in two of its published documents. Could they also be wrong about Limbo?

eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vaticans-intern…

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION USES PREMISE THAT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT : LIMBO
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

The International Theological Commission's position paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 has an objective factual error and is approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION ASSUMES ‘SEEDS OF THE WORD’ (VATICAN COUNCIL II ) IN OTHER RELIGIONS ARE KNOWN TO US AND THIS IS AN EXPLICIT EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vaticans-intern…

VATICAN COUNCIL II REJECTS THE THEOLOGY OF RELIGIONS
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vatican-council…

Former Secretary of the International Theological Commission holds that those saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance are known to us and so an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/secretary-of-in…
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/msgr-guido-pozz…
Lionel Andrades
Friday, April 13, 2012

'Light of the World' p.107 expresses Pope Benedict’s personal opinion or is the ordinary magisterium: the pope wrongly assumes those saved in invincible ignorance are known exceptions to the dogma and the SSPX position on ecumenism and non Catholic religions

A comment on this blog says that in Light of the World (Ignatius)p.107 the Holy Father was only expressing a perso…More
Friday, April 13, 2012

'Light of the World' p.107 expresses Pope Benedict’s personal opinion or is the ordinary magisterium: the pope wrongly assumes those saved in invincible ignorance are known exceptions to the dogma and the SSPX position on ecumenism and non Catholic religions

A comment on this blog says that in Light of the World (Ignatius)p.107 the Holy Father was only expressing a personal opinion.Whether it was his personal opinion or the ordinary magisterium there was a factual, objective error.

I respect Pope Benedict XVI and I value what he writes.The point I wanted to make was that we do not know explicit cases of those saved in invincible ignorance etc as the pope assumes. Since we do not know any of these cases they are not explicit exceptions to the ancient teaching that there is exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church only and there are no (known) exceptions.
Since the pope makes this error he assumes that Vatican Council II mentions exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Since he thinks there are so many exceptions ( seeds of the Word, good conscience etc),then for him, the traditional position on ecumenism and other religions of the Society of St.Pius X(SSPX) is flawed. He would expect the SSPX to accept that there are defacto known cases of non Catholics in the present time (2011-2012 ) saved in invincible ignorance etc.We know there are no such cases.
These cases are always possibilities. They can never be defacto known to us. Since they are only possibilities always, they do not contradict the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which says all need to convert into the Church for salvation. It also does not contradict Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II which states all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

The SSPX needs to publicly state that there are no known exceptions to the dogma mentioned in Vatican Council II. There are no reference texts.
Also before any decision is taken on the SSPX a public clarification (non secret) should be asked of the the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,Vatican.

The pope approved two position papers of the International Theological Commission(ITC) with the same error. The two papers are
1.
Christianity and the World Religions(1997)
www.vatican.va/…/rc_cti_1997_cri….

2. THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED
www.vatican.va/…/rc_con_cfaith_d…

The President of the ITC was Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. He represented the Vatican in failed talks with the SSPX. They differed over the issue of ecumenism, inter religious dialogue and religious liberty indicated by the Open Letter to the SSPX by Mnsgr.Nicola Bux, Consultant to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Office of Liturgical Celebrations of the Pope .
It may be mentioned that though the pope made the objective error in the book by Peter Seewald in none of the magisterial documents, including those issued by Cardinal Ratzinger and then Pope Benedict XVI, is it said that those saved in invincible ignorance etc are known to us personally or that they are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.No magisterial text including that of Vatican Council II makes this error.
-Lionel Andrades
_______________________________________

There is no reference text in Vatican Council II contrary to the SSPX position on other religions, ecumenism
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/there-is-no-ref…

CONDITIONS FOR THE SSPX TO 'ENTER THE CHURCH'
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/conditions-for-…

There could soon be an 'ecclesial rupture' because the Vatican does not want to say that there can be two interpretations of Vatican Council II.
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/there-could-soo…

CATHOLICS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD PRAYED TODAY FOR 'HERETICS AND SCHISMATICS': DIVINE MERCY NOVENA
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/catholics-throu…

VATICAN-SSPX NEED TO CALL TIME OUT: ERROR IN LIGHT OF THE WORLD DIRECTLY LINKED TO DIFFERENCES IN ECUMENISM, INTER-RELIGIOUS DIALOGUE, RELIGIOUS LIBERTY WHICH MSGR.NICOLA BUX MENTIONED
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vatican-sspx-ne…

HOLY FATHER ASSUMES THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE ARE KNOWN TO US: CONTRADICTS VATICAN COUNCIL I AND II
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/holy-father-ass…

HOLY FATHER MAKES AN OBJECTIVE ERROR IN WRITING
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/holy-father-mak…

The Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ says Nostra Aetate 4,Vatican Council II
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/jewish-authorit…

DID THE POPE REALLY DENY THE FAITH ON THE NEED FOR JEWS TO CONVERT ?
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/did-pope-really…

ANIVERSARY OF THE DENIAL OF THE FAITH BY THE MAGISTERIUM ?
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/aniversary-of-d…
5 more comments from Lionel Andrades
Lionel Andrades
Thursday, April 12, 2012

There is no reference text in Vatican Council II contrary to the SSPX position on other religions, ecumenism

Only God can judge invincible ignorance, a good conscience and the presence of 'seeds of the Word 'so they are not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Cardinal Luiz Ladaria is wrong to cite these texts as opposing exclusive salvation in the …More
Thursday, April 12, 2012

There is no reference text in Vatican Council II contrary to the SSPX position on other religions, ecumenism

Only God can judge invincible ignorance, a good conscience and the presence of 'seeds of the Word 'so they are not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Cardinal Luiz Ladaria is wrong to cite these texts as opposing exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church.
We often get the pitch of ‘the reforms’ of Vatican Council II from the Jewish Left and if you oppose them, correct them, then they call you anti Semitic. That’s Pastor Ted Pikes experience with the ADL. The ADL’s ‘reforms of Vatican Council II ‘ propaganda has no citations from the Council. There are no reference texts, it’s just a political slogan.
The 'reforms of Vatican Council II' seem to have been cited in the failed Vatican- SSPX talks. Cardinal Luiz Ladaria, who represented the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) ,in the talks, had to reject the SSPX position on ecumenism and other religions. Since he believes that no more, is there exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church.It ended for him after Vatican Council II and the Letter of the Holy Office 1949.
He has made this clear in the International Theological Commission’s (ITC) website and it is still there for anyone to check it.
Cardinal Ladaria will cite Lumen Gentium 16 ( invincible ignorance/ good conscience) as being an exception to exclusive salvation in the Catholic Church. He does not realize that only God can judge invincible ignorance and a good conscience. We do not know any such case in the present times (2012).Since we do not know any such person it does not contradict the teaching of exclusive salvation being there in only the Catholic Church.
So he cannot cite invincible ignorance and a good conscience (LG 16) as being explicit exceptions to outside the church no salvation. Yet this is what he did and he rejected the SSPX position on ecumenism, other religions, religious liberty etc.
He considered LG 16 as a valid citation from Vatican Council II to reject exclusive salvation and the SSPX position on ecumenism, inter religious dialogue etc. The same could be said about other quotations from Vatican Council II, ‘elements of sanctification’(LG 8) and ‘seeds of the Word’ etc.
The SSPX accepts as a possibility that a non Catholic can be saved in invincible ignorance and a good conscience and it would be known only to God. One can only accept it as a possibility since defacto ( in reality) we cannot know any such case.It is only known in Heaven.
The CDF needs to issue a clarification regarding this widespread error.
Common sense tells us that there are no citations in Vatican Council II which contradict the SSPX position on ecumenism, inter religious dialogue, religious liberty etc.
If there is an ‘ecclesial rupture’ because the SSPX is faithful to the doctrines of the Catholic Church and the CDF does not have any relevant citations from Vatican Council II-then this would be an injustice against the SSPX and all loyal, faithful Catholics.
It would be assumed that the ‘ecclesial rupture’ is politically motivated , one of the ‘reforms of Vatican Council II ‘.
-Lionel Andrades
Lionel Andrades
I have been asked if the SSPX should enter the Church with full canonical status by accepting Vatican Council II.

I think that the SSPX should ‘enter the Church’ after the following clarifications.

1.


There are two interpretations of Vatican Council II.

1. The Jewish Left liberal interpretation.

2. The interpretation in accord with Tradition and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

More
I have been asked if the SSPX should enter the Church with full canonical status by accepting Vatican Council II.

I think that the SSPX should ‘enter the Church’ after the following clarifications.

1.


There are two interpretations of Vatican Council II.

1. The Jewish Left liberal interpretation.

2. The interpretation in accord with Tradition and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

The Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) should reject the first interpretation of Vatican Council II and accept the second one.

2.
The SSPX should clarify that we do not know any case of a non Catholic in 2011-2012 who is saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire, a good conscience, the seeds of the Word etc. So there is nothing in Vatican Council II which contradicts the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

There are no explicit exceptions and the Church has not retracted this dogma which Pope Pius XII called an ‘infallible ‘statement (Letter of the Holy Office 1949).

3.

The SSPX agrees that a non Catholic can be saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire. The SSPX accepts this possibility.

Since the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 also menionted this possibility the SSPX can endorse implicit baptism of desire and implicit invincible ignorance, known only to God, along with the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

There is no text in Vatican Council II or the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 which contradicts the exclusive interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus .

Since there is exclusive salvation in the only the Catholic Church (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence) and this teaching is not contradicted by LG 16 etc, the SSPX maintains its position on ecumenism, other religions and dialogue. It is in agreement also with Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II which says all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

So the SSPX is affirming Vatican Council II in accord with Tradition and the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and there is nothing in Vatican Council II or the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to contradict the strict interpretation of the dogma.

(Note: The Letter does not state that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy. It mentions disobedience. The Church lifted the excommunication without him having to recant. The Letter mentions ‘the dogma’. The dogma indicates all non Catholics need to enter the Church to avoid the fires of Hell (Cantate Domino).So the Letter supports Fr. Leonard Feeney here.)

If the cardinals who issued the Letter assumed that the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are explicitly known to us then it was an objective error on their part. We don’t know these cases.

SUMMARY

1.
The SSPX should announce that they would accept Vatican Council II interpreted according to Tradition and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and with reference texts from Vatican Council lI. They reject the liberal version of Vatican Council which has no supportive texts, since we do not know cases saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience, seeds of the Word etc.

2. Since Vatican Council II does not mention any explicitly known exceptions to the defined dogma extra eclesiam nulla salus and Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council, the exclusive salvation interpretation of the dogma still stands. So the SSPX does not have to change its traditional position on ecumenism, other religions, inter religious dialogue, religious liberty.

Once these two points are clarified other aspects of Vatican Council II can be interpreted according to Tradition and as Pope Benedict XVI has said, that the Council is not a break from tradition but a continuity.-Lionel Andrades
Lionel Andrades
Ireneas.
Cardinal Luiz Ladaria the former President of the International Theological Commission(ITC) in two of the position papers on the ITC website claims that the Church no more teaches exclusive salvation with reference to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. He cites Vatican Council II and the Letter of the Holy Office.

Cardinal Ladaria took part in the Vatican-SSPX talks.

Then Pope …
More
Ireneas.
Cardinal Luiz Ladaria the former President of the International Theological Commission(ITC) in two of the position papers on the ITC website claims that the Church no more teaches exclusive salvation with reference to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. He cites Vatican Council II and the Letter of the Holy Office.

Cardinal Ladaria took part in the Vatican-SSPX talks.

Then Pope Benedict XVI in Light of the World (Ignatius) p.107 also suggests that there can be exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

So it is understandable why they reject the SSPX position on ecumenism,inter-religious dialogue and other religions.

They believe that there are explicit exceptions to the dogma.

So the point I was trying to make is that being saved in invincible ignorance and having a good conscience (LG 16) etc is not an exception to the dogma. Since we do not know any of these cases in real life.

Since there are no exceptions to the dogma how can the Vatican object to the SSPX position on ecumenism and other religions?


International Theological Commission (ITC) makes an objective, factual error in two of its published documents. Could they also be wrong about Limbo?
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vaticans-intern…

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION USES PREMISE THAT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT : LIMBO
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

The International Theological Commission's position paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 has an objective factual error and is approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION ASSUMES ‘SEEDS OF THE WORD’ (VATICAN COUNCIL II ) IN OTHER RELIGIONS ARE KNOWN TO US AND THIS IS AN EXPLICIT EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS

eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vaticans-intern…

VATICAN COUNCIL II REJECTS THE THEOLOGY OF RELIGIONS

eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vatican-council…

Former Secretary of the International Theological Commission holds that those saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance are known to us and so an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/secretary-of-in…
Lionel Andrades
Wednesday, April 11, 2012
NEWSPAPER ADVERTISEMENT : APPEAL ON THE SSPX ISSUE eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/newspaper-adver…
Lionel Andrades
Wednesday, April 11, 2012

There could soon be an 'ecclesial rupture' because the Vatican does not want to say that there can be two interpretations of Vatican Council II.

If the pope does not know personally of non Catholics saved in 2012 in invincible ignorance and when Vatican Council II does not make this claim of knowing explicit cases in real life how can the magisterium reject the SSPX …More
Wednesday, April 11, 2012

There could soon be an 'ecclesial rupture' because the Vatican does not want to say that there can be two interpretations of Vatican Council II.

If the pope does not know personally of non Catholics saved in 2012 in invincible ignorance and when Vatican Council II does not make this claim of knowing explicit cases in real life how can the magisterium reject the SSPX doctrinal position on other religions, ecumenism and dialogue?

The SSPX (Society of St.Pius X) is not obliged to accept an interpretation of Vatican Council II with no supporting text on ecumenism and inter religious dialogue. Nowhere does Vatican Council II say Judaism is a path to salvation or that Jews are saved in general in their religion. Instead the Magisterium is unable to say in public that Vatican Council II (AG 7) says Judaism and other religions are not paths to salvation and that Catholics are the Chosen People of God (NA 4).

Why does the SSPX have to accept Vatican Council II when the pope and his Curia will not affirm Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II?
The Holy Father is not proclaiming the Faith for political reasons and the falsehood and lies are being repeated by thousands of Catholics to protect their self interest or due to ignorance.
There could soon be an 'ecclesial rupture' because the Vatican does not want to say that there can be two interpretations of Vatican Council II. One according to the text of Vatican Council II and the other due to political necessity and survival and with no references from Vatican Council II text.
I repeat - Vatican Council II does not mention a visible baptism of desire or known- to- us- in- Heaven-cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience or seeds of the Word. So there is no doctrinal basis for rejecting the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II. SSPX was in agreement with Vatican Council II on ecumenism, inter religious dialogue and religious liberty in the Vatican-SSPX failed talks.
The Vatican needs to clarify in public if they know any case of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance, the seeds of the Word and a good conscience.
If the answer is No then they should permit the SSPC not to accept Vatican Council II (Jewish Left version) - with the Vatican agreeing to clarify the issue over time.

Catholics should sign petitions and place advertisements in the newspapers asking a politically oriented Curia how can those saved in invincible ignorance and a good conscience in the year 2012, be explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and so how can the SSPX position on ecumenism and inter religious dialogue be wrong?
Catechism Teachers should ask the Vatican how can they excommunicate the SSPX for affirming the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus (in accord with Vatican Council II) when there is no contradicting text in Vatican Council II to reject the SSPX position on other religions?
Religious communities ask the Vatican why you all cannot accept the literal interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus and also implicit baptism of desire and invincible ignorance. Until this issue is settled there should not be an 'ecclesial rupture' with the SSPX.

Assuming Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for denying invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire (and he was not!) you can go ahead and affirm implicit invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire and also the literal interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus?
Catholic religious communities who attend the Novus Ordo Mass why cannot you accept the literal interpretation of extra ecclesism nulla salus and also implicit baptism of desire and being saved in invincible ignorance implicitly,this being known only to God ?
It is the magisterium's doctrinal position which is irrational and contrary to common sense? SSPX please ask the Vatican spokesman if he actually knows any case of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance. Is there a visible baptism of desire?
If the pope does not know of any person saved in invincible ignorance and now in Heaven and when Vatican Council II does not make this claim of knowing in real life explicit cases inHeaven, how can the magisterium reject the SSPX doctrinal position on other religions, ecumenism and dialogue?
Even though the SSPX rejects Vatican Council II (Jewish Left version) they should start talking with the Vatican in terms of Vatican Council II: ask the Vatican Curia to cite texts in Vatican Council II which contradict extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
Also, how can the Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith(CDF), Cardinal Luiz Ladaria S.J , as the former President of the International Theological Commission (ITC) reject the literal interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the Nicene Creed, Vatican Council II (AG 7) and still offer Holy Mass ?.This heresy can be viewed on the ITC’s website.

When the pope says in Light of the World (Ignatius) p.107 that all who are saved are saved through Jesus we must note it has two meanings.
1. All who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church and this is our general Catholic belief, which we accept.There is no controversy here.
2. However the theological meaning is that all who are saved are saved either in invincible ignorance, a good conscience, and the baptism of desire etc or with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.
Then the pope also says in Light of the Wolrd p.107 that there is only ‘one channel’ of salvation. he says there is only one way of salvation. implying the one mentioned above.
This is false theologically since the one channel of salvation in the Catholic Church has always been through Jesus in the Catholic Church. We don’t know any case of a non Catholic saved invincible ignorance etc as the pope would wrongly assume.
When the pope makes an objective, factual error one can expect the rest of the Church to be confused or in error.
I ask Catholic priests these questions and they do not answer. Some say they do not know the answer and others say that they have not specialized in this or that.When I ask them if I can record their answer with my camera they say no.They will agree that one needs to proclaim the Faith and not be ashamed of it.-Lionel Andrades
irenaeus
Lionel,

Nobody has claimed that "invincible ignorance" can save. It can not. The Pope and the Catholic Church have not taught this. Not yesterday, and not today. What the Church teaches is that "invincible ignorance" will not condemn you, in and of itself. This is very different from saying you can be saved by it. Invincible ignorance does not justify you. The pope and VII have not changed this.…More
Lionel,

Nobody has claimed that "invincible ignorance" can save. It can not. The Pope and the Catholic Church have not taught this. Not yesterday, and not today. What the Church teaches is that "invincible ignorance" will not condemn you, in and of itself. This is very different from saying you can be saved by it. Invincible ignorance does not justify you. The pope and VII have not changed this. Nor have they ever taken this position as you claim.
Lionel Andrades
Monday, April 9, 2012

HOLY FATHER MAKES AN OBJECTIVE ERROR IN WRITING

Excommunicated priests could cry foul: Members of the SSPX need to appeal to the pope to affirm Vatican Council II (AG 7) in public.

It’s all there in writing.Dissent from a religious. Not a liberal priest or bishop, but Our Holy Father the pope himself.

It’s hard to believe. It was something that was a suspicion for …More
Monday, April 9, 2012

HOLY FATHER MAKES AN OBJECTIVE ERROR IN WRITING

Excommunicated priests could cry foul: Members of the SSPX need to appeal to the pope to affirm Vatican Council II (AG 7) in public.

It’s all there in writing.Dissent from a religious. Not a liberal priest or bishop, but Our Holy Father the pope himself.

It’s hard to believe. It was something that was a suspicion for a long time but there was no proof.Now the pope has made an error and put it in writing. He can no more stay behind the secret, confidential memos and telephone calls or cardinal - bishop proxies.

The pope’s error is not ex cathedra but it is a public error contradicting the ex cathedra statements of popes and Church Councils but worse still, to would seem for some, it’s a common sense error.

Perhaps it was inadvertant and no ill will was intended.Let us give our Holy Father the benefit of the doubt.

The error, among other things, shows that the Vatican is in no position to demand that the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) accept Vatican Council II (Jewish Left version) when the pope himself is rejecting Vatican Council II , Ad Gentes 7 and misunderstanding Lumen Gentium 16, Vatican Council II.(1)

The SSPX on April 15, the deadline for their response to the March 16 Vatican statement, should ask the pope or the Vatican spokesman, to clarify their position on AG 7 and LG 16 and the factual error made by the pope in writing.

How can there be ‘an ecclesial rupture of painful and incalculable consequences’ when the Vatican itself cannot affirm Vatican Council II according to common sense, reason and simple objectivity.

Here’s the problem for all to see:

The Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI tells Peter Seewald in the book Light of the World- Conversations with Peter Seewald (Ignatius) that there is only one way of salvation and all who are saved are saved through Jesus.

This is a simple statement and acceptable. All good Catholics can agree with the Holy Father.He implies that all non Catholics are saved with the baptsm of water and Catholic Faith or, in invincible ignorance,a good conscience and other implicit forms of salvation known only to God and unknown to us.

So this is the one way of salvation.

But there is a problem here and it may not show itself unless you think it through.

The Holy Father is saying that the one way of salvation is not just Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (AG 7, Vatican Council II) but also being saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience (LG 16, Vatican Council II) etc.

So when AG 7 states all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water the Holy Father says “No, Not all.”- the exceptions are those who are in invincible ignorance, a good conscience (LG 16) etc and are saved. There are exceptions.

There are exceptions to AG 7 ?

Did Vatican Council II make a mistake?


Is Vatican Council II irrational, illogical ?

How can Vatican Council II like the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus say all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water ?

Something is wrong, somewhere?!

Now we come to the heart of the problem.The Richard Cushing Error.The objective flaw. And the Holy Father also fell for it.

It’s simple. It’s so simple that many will not believe it.

We don’t know anyone on earth saved in invincible ignorance or a good conscience.

Objectively we don’t know anyone in this category.They are in Heaven and are known only to God.

So the one way of salvation is not all who are saved through Jesus and the Church as the Holy Father told Peter Seewald.

The pope assumes that those saved in invincible ignorance etc are known to us and so they are an exception to AG 7.He also assumes that LG 16 refers to explicitly known cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance and with a good conscience.

This is an objective, factual error. We cannot meet or telephone someone saved in invincible ignorance. So it is not an explicit, defacto exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and the centuries-old one way of salvation for all.

So when the Vatican asks the SSPX to affirm Vatican Council II the SSPX should ask the Vatican to clarify LG 16 and AG 7, what is the Vatican’s position on this objective error of the pope?

Ask the Vatican spokesman if he knows anyone personally saved in invincible ignorance or a good conscience.

Catholic priests in Rome, to whom I have asked this question, say they don’t know a single such case.- Lionel Andrades

1.
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church’s preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself “by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door.- Ad Gentes 7

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.-Lumen Gentium 14

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.-Lumen Gentium 16
Lionel Andrades
Sunday, April 8, 2012

DID THE POPE REALLY DENY THE FAITH ON THE NEED FOR JEWS TO CONVERT ?

Yesterday on a blog I was accused of being a liar because I said Pope Benedict XVI said Jews do not have to convert in the present time. (1) The writer (Jabba Papa) quoted the relevant passage. He denied that the pope had made that statement under pressure from the Zionists.

Here is the passage …More
Sunday, April 8, 2012

DID THE POPE REALLY DENY THE FAITH ON THE NEED FOR JEWS TO CONVERT ?

Yesterday on a blog I was accused of being a liar because I said Pope Benedict XVI said Jews do not have to convert in the present time. (1) The writer (Jabba Papa) quoted the relevant passage. He denied that the pope had made that statement under pressure from the Zionists.

Here is the passage in which the Holy Father dismisses the Nicene Creed, the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7). According to the teachings of the Church any religious in this position is automatically excommunicated. Catholics have suffered persecution for not denying this very truth of our Faith. The Society of St.Pius X (SSPX) could be excommunicated this month for not affirming the same ‘heresy?’ as the pope. They have to accept the Jewish Left version of Vatican Council II and cannot say that they affirm Vatican Council II in accord with Tradition and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

1. JabbaPapa says:

April 7, 2012 at 16:10
Pope Benedict XVI in Light of the World-Conversations with Peter Seewald saysJews do not have to convert in the present times.

Do you think that it is an appropriate manner to celebrate the Resurrection of our Lord to post blatant lies about the Holy Father?

Here’s what the Pope wrote:

The old formulation really was offensive to Jews and failed to express positively the overall intrinsic unity between the Old and New Testament. For this reason, I believed that a modification of this passage in the old liturgy was necessary, especially, as I have already said, out of consideration for our relation with our Jewish friends. I altered the text in such a way as to express our faith that Christ is the Savior for all, that there are not two channels of salvation, so that Christ is also the redeemer of the Jews, and not just of the Gentiles.

But the new formulation also shifts the focus from a direct petition for the conversion of the Jews in a missionary sense to a plea that the Lord might bring about the hour of history when we may all be united. So the polemical arguments with which a whole series of theologians assailed me are ill-considered; they do not accurately reflect the reality of the situation.

In other words, rather than these mendacious claims that you have posted being accurate — the exact opposite is true, and in that book, Pope Benedict XVI has called for the conversion of the Jews.

You should be utterly ashamed for posting these sorts of lies on the eve of Easter.

2. Lionel Andrades says:

April 7, 2012 at 16:42

Jabba Papa:

Here’s what the Pope wrote :

The old formulation really was offensive to Jews and failed to express positively the overall intrinsic unity between the Old and New Testament.

Lionel:
It was offensive to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel in public they broke dialogue with the Vatican.

Pope Benedict XVI:
For this reason, I believed that a modification of this passage in the old liturgy was necessary, especially,

Lionel:
So because of the protests the Holy Father thought a modification of the passage was necessary.

Pope Benedict XVI:
as I have already said, out of consideration for our relation with our Jewish friends.

Lionel:
And to prevent the reported threat of violence and further protests reported in the media…

Pope Benedict XVI:
I altered the text in such a way as to express our faith that Christ is the Savior for all,
Lionel:
Here there is no problem. Christ is the Saviour of all.
Pope Benedict XVI:
that there are not two channels of salvation,

Lionel:
Here is the problem .
There is only one channel for the pope and this channel is that all who are saved are saved by Christ.Fine, except the centuries old one channel was Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

There can be those saved in their religion and this is not an exception to the dogma which referred to the one channel of salvation. So there really is one channel and all Jews need to enter it with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. This means the need to convert in the present time. The pope says they do not have to convert.
Conceptually, vaguely he says all those who are saved are saved by Christ.
Pope Benedict XVI:
so that Christ is also the redeemer of the Jews, and not just of the Gentiles.
Lionel: This is not an issue. This was accepted.
The question is: Christ is also the redeemer of the Jews and not just of the Gentiles and does it mean that all Jews do not have to convert in the present time?
Pope Benedict XVI:
But the new formulation also shifts the focus from a direct petition for the conversion of the Jews in a missionary sense
Lionel:
‘Shifts the focus from a direct petition for conversion’????
‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’-Nicene Creed. Except for the Jews in 2012. Not applicable for them?
Jabba:
to a plea that the Lord might bring about the hour of history when we may all be united. So the polemical arguments with which a whole series of theologians assailed me are ill-considered; they do not accurately reflect the reality of the situation.
In other words, rather than these mendacious claims that you have posted being accurate — the exact opposite is true, and in that book, Pope Benedict XVI has called for the conversion of the Jews.
Lionel:
‘Shifts the focus from a direct petition for conversion’????-Pope Benedict XVI
____________________________________________

'I modified it in such a way that… one did not pray directly for the conversion of the Jews…but that the Lord might hasten the historic hour in which we will all be united.'- Light of the World-Conversations with Peter Seewald (Ignatius) p.107

'one did not pray directly for the conversion of the Jews' since they do not have to convert to avoid Hell it is implied and that they will be saved in general in their religion.
On Sept 22,2009 Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco,President of the Italian Catholic Bishops Conference (CEI) before two Jewish rabbis gave into pressure by them and issued a CEI directive which said that Jews do not have to convert in the present times.The Cardinal stated that he had the support of the Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Bertone and the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI. There has been no contradiction from the Vatican.

Cardinal Bertone also had called the attention of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel to a front page article in the L'Osservatore Romano written by Cardinal Walter Kaspar in which he stated Jews do not have to convert in the present time.The cardinal issued the statement on Sept.22,2009 .It was reported in the daily Avvenire, on Sept.23, 2009

The front page article (April 10, 2008) in the L’Osservatore Romano was written by Cardinal Walter Kaspar.It was presented to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Vatican Secretary of State. It was approved by the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI.The article said that Vatican Council II indicated that non Catholics can be saved. So Cardinal Kaspar concluded that Jews do not have to convert in the present times.

Cardinal William Levada, Prefect of the Congregation for Doctrine and Faith, Vatican never issued a clarification on Sept 22,2009 when Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco quoted Cardinal Bertone saying that the Revised Good Friday Prayer was not for the conversion of the Jews and Jews do not have to convert.
The Revised Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews was not for the conversion of present day Jews the daily newspaper of the Italian Bishops Conference Avvenire reported (' Gironata ebraico-cristiana riprende la celebrazione commune Bagnasco ai rabbinic Laras e Di Segni : diamo nuovo slancio al dialogo di Lorenzo Rosoli p. 8, Chiesa).- Lionel Andrades
1.
catholicismpure.wordpress.com/…/communique-conc…
8 more comments from Lionel Andrades
Lionel Andrades
Friday, April 6, 2012

ANIVERSARY OF THE DENIAL OF THE FAITH BY THE MAGISTERIUM ?

If a Catholic priest, bishop or cardinal denies a teaching of the Church which must be ‘firmly believed’ he is automatically excommunicated.Cardinal Ratzinger and Cardinal Bertone as President and Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith excommunicated a Sri Lankan OMI priest for denying …More
Friday, April 6, 2012

ANIVERSARY OF THE DENIAL OF THE FAITH BY THE MAGISTERIUM ?

If a Catholic priest, bishop or cardinal denies a teaching of the Church which must be ‘firmly believed’ he is automatically excommunicated.Cardinal Ratzinger and Cardinal Bertone as President and Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith excommunicated a Sri Lankan OMI priest for denying the Immaculate Conception o f Our Lady.

Pope Benedict XVI in Light of the World-Conversations with Peter Seewald says Jews do not have to convert in the present times. Pope Benedict XVI says that he has revised the ancient liturgy (on Good Friday) so that it does not say that Jews need to convert in the present times but that they will convert in a future time (eschatological time).
So he is saying that he has revised the Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews which now says Jews do not have to convert in the present times.(1) This is a rejection of the Nicene Creed in which we pray “I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin”.Jews do need the baptism of water in the present time.
The pope is saying that without the baptism of water given to adults with Catholic Faith, Jews in general, are saved in their religion.
Vatican Council II mentions the possibility of non Catholics being saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience etc. It does not state that they are saved in general in their religion. Since in general the normal means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water.(AG 7).
The Vatican recieved a threat from the Chief Rabbinate and the Goverment of Israel over the issue of the Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of Jews it was reported in the secular newspapers here.There was the threat of war. The pope diffused the tension with a front page report in the L’Osservatore Romano in which it was said that Jews do not have to convert in the present time.
This message was repeated in Light of the World-Conversations with Peter Seewald (Ignatius Press). The pope told Seewald that there is only one means of salvation and all who are saved are saved through Jesus.True. However this can also be a partial truth and denial of a defined dogma offensive to the Jewish Left.Offensive to the pro-Sodom and Gomorrah Zionists posing as Jews.Yes all those who are saved are saved through Jesus and the Church, Jesus' Mystical Body, however every one needs to enter the Church with the baptism of water and Catholic Faith (Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II, dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus,Dominus Iesus 20 etc).
The pope and his Curia have put away the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus which Pope Pius XII called an ‘infallible teaching’.

In the same book the pope mentioned an exception to the prohibited use of condoms, an issue already being supported before by the liberal English bishops.The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) issued a clarification saying that in general the Church has not changed its teaching on condoms. The CDF never issued a clarification to the popes comments on the Jews in that same book.
1.Do Jews do not need to convert in the present times to avoid Hell?The pope says no. The CDF says nothing.
2.Do all Jews need to enter the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation?(AG 7 etc).The pope says no. The CDF says nothing.
3.Do all Jews need to convert into the Church for salvation ?(
Cantate Domino, Council of Florence. Defined dogma).The pope says no. The CDF is silent.
The Bible says Jews need to convert. The pope says...

The Jewish Anti Defamation League(ADL) claims the Church has changed its teaching regarding Jews and Judaism.This claim is made in the ADL Bearing Witness education program for Catholic schools.The CDF ignores it. The USCCB implements the ADL program in Catholic schools.
The secular newspapers imply that those who are saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience (LG 16) etc are known exceptions to the dogma ( and to Vatican Council II, AG 7). The Magisterium is silent.
Vatican Council II in reality says Jews need to convert for salvation.The Society of St.Pius X in reality accepts this teaching and interpretation of Vatican Council II. The SSPX is condemned.They are condemned for rejecting the Jewish Left interpretation of Vatican Council II. The Magisterium will not state like Vatican Council II,Ad Gentes 7 that Jews need to convert.The Magisterium will not affirm the Catholic Faith.
Do we pray or do we not pray for the Conversion of the Jews? At the Good Friday Service I attended today afternoon they did not mention that Jews need to convert into the Church. There was a vague mention, a hope, that Jews will know the fullness of Redemption in Jesus Christ.
The popes says they are saved in the present times.Now if the SSPX does not say the same thing they soon could be excommunicated according to the March 16 Vatican statement.
In the name of ecumenism and the one world religion the Catholic Teaching Authority could be told to excommunicate the SSPX if they do not accept the prevailing heresy. Once this is done the enemies of the Church will demand even more. The Vatican could be told to give up devotion to Our Lady and say the Mass is not a Sacrifice.

The pope has already said that in the case of the Brazilian girl there was an exception to abortion.(Cardinal Bertone and Mnsgr.Fisichella said they were instructed by the pope).The CDF issued a general statement saying there was no change in the church’s teaching on abortion.Obviously the Yes and NO position on Limbo was also useful for the media.
In the rejection of a defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus , Vatican Council II and the Nicene Creed the pope and his Curia stand automatically excommunicated according to the teachings of the Church always upheld by them.What would be the credibility in excommunicating the SSPX bishops for denying the Jewish Left version of Vatican Council II when they themself deny in public teachings which merit excommunication?
How can they excommunicate the SSPX for denying the Jewish Left version of Vatican Council II which claims Jews do not have to convert into the Catholic Church ?

I am not a member of the SSPX and I attend Mass in Italian.The Traditional Latin Mass is not available for me in the area where I live.Neither is it available in the evenings daily in the centre of Rome.I reject Vatican Council II as interpreted by the ADL and its allies.I accept Vatican Council II as a continuation of Tradition and in accord with the literal interpretation of the defined
dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.i.e the Catholic Church says Jews need to convert for salvation (Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II) and Catholics are the Chosen people of God, the ‘new people of God’(Nostra Aetate 4, Vatican Council II).

SAD HISTORY
On Sept 22,2009 Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco,President of the Italian Catholic Bishops Conference (CEI) before two Jewish rabbis gave into pressure by them and issued a CEI directive which said that Jews do not have to convert in the present times.The Cardinal stated that he had the support of the Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Bertone and the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI. There has been no contradiction from the Vatican.
Cardinal Bertone also had called the attention of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel to a front page article in the L'Osservatore Romano written by Cardinal Walter Kaspar in which he stated Jews do not have to convert in the present time.The cardinal issued the statement on Sept.22,2009 .It was reported in the daily Avvenire, on Sept.23, 2009 the feast day of Padre Pio.

Father Tullio Rotondo an Italian diocesan priest in a an e-mail message to me said that the cardinal’s statement was contary to the Bible in which all Jews are called to conversion.Fr.Rotondo said that Jesus had called all people to convert, especially the Jews. Jesus had sent His Apostles to convert all people.Fr.Rotondo referred to Bible passages Matt.3:2.Matt.4:17,Matt.11:20, Matt.12:41,Matt.13:15,Matt 18:3,Mark 1:15,Marck 4:12, Mark 6:12,Luk 5:32, Luke 10:30,Luke 11:32,Luk 13:3,Luke 13:5,Luke 15:7,Luke 15:10,John 12:40,Acts 3:26,9:35,Acts.20:21,Acts.26:20,Acts.28:27,2 Tim.2:25.
The above Biblical quotations Fr.Tullio Rotondo said help us understand that first and foremost the Jews need to convert and then the others. It makes us understand that we must preach for the conversion of the Jews and we must pray and appeal to the saints for this conversion.
We pray also for the conversion of the cardinals, he said, who say things that appear scandalous and contrary to the Sacred Faith. Don Tullio said that he is praying also that the Holy Father intervenes.Don Tullio said that we must fight also in the Church of God, for the Truth.
Pope Benedict XVI tells Seewad that he revised the Good Friday Prayer ‘in such a way that it contained our faith, that Christ is salvation for all.’ (This of course does not say that all Jews are on the path to Hell unless they convert as the Church has taught for centuries. This was the one way of salvation) The pope says ‘that there do not exist two ways of salvation’( The pope indicates there is only one way of salvation and Jews are saved in general through this one way; Christ and the Church, and so they do not have to convert. Catholic priests have pointed out that we do not know any case of a non Catholic saved by Jesus and the Church. There is no case of implicit salvation which is explicit for us. The dogma says everyone needs to be an explicit member of the Church. So the pope’s one way of salvation is a strawman) The pope continues ‘and that therefore Christ is also the saviour of the Jews, and not only of the pagans ‘(Christ is the Saviour of the Jews and pagans and they are saved, even if they do not enter the Catholic Church? Pope John Paul II’s Dominus Iesus n.20 says Jesus has died for all but to receive this salvation they need to enter the Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church 846 says that the Church is like a door in which all need to enter, Ad Gentes 7 says all need baptism for salvation).
The front page article (April 10, 2008) in the L’Osservatore Romano was written by Cardinal Walter Kaspar.It was presented to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Vatican Secretary of State. It was approved by the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI.

The article said that Vatican Council II indicated that non Catholics can be saved. So Cardinal Kaspar concluded that Jews do not have to convert in the present times.

Cardinal William Levada, Prefect of the Congregation for Doctrine and Faith, Vatican never issued a clarification on Sept 22,2009 when Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco quoted Cardinal Bertone saying that the Revised Good Friday Prayer was not for the conversion of the Jews and Jews do not have to convert.
The Revised Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews was not for the conversion of present day Jews the daily newspaper of the Italian Bishops Conference Avvenire reported (' Gironata ebraico-cristiana riprende la celebrazione commune Bagnasco ai rabbinic Laras e Di Segni : diamo nuovo slancio al dialogo di Lorenzo Rosoli p. 8, Chiesa).
1. Pope Benedict approved the article written on the front page of the L’Osservatore Romano by Cardinal Kaspar and sent to the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. The message was Jews do not have to convert in the present times. Also it was alleged that this was taught in Vatican Council II.
2. Pope Benedict approved the meeting of Cardinal Bagnasco with the two Rabbis when Bagnasco issued a directive of the Conference of Catholic Bishops saying that Jews do not have to convert in the present times. Bagnasco claimed that it had the support of the Pope.
3. The pope approved Cardinal Bertone’s claim to the Chief Rabbinate through a Letter, public, that we Catholics had a belief in Jesus. (That was about all). And that the Chief Rabbinate had read the article by Cardinal Kaspar which said Jews do not have to convert in the present times.
This new teaching was been given to us after protests were made by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel and the Jewish Left. Dialogue with the Vatican was suspended. The issue was the Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of Jews.
Pope Benedict XVI is my pope and I pray for him. I would not dare to make any comments on his personality or character. I try to restrict myself to theology and doctrine.We need to be united with him during these times.It is possible that he can change the present errors .- Lionel Andrades

1.
I modified it in such a way that… one did not pray directly for the conversion of the Jews…but that the Lord might hasten the historic hour in which we will all be united.-Light of the World-Conversations with Peter Seewald (Ignatius) p.107
Lionel Andrades
New magisterium could excommunicate SSPX for denying Vatican Council II when they say Jews need to convert and Catholics are the Chosen People of God.

The pope was forced to say that Bishop Richard Williamson had to accept the six million Holocaust figure, even though initially the Vatican spokesman said the bishop was free to have an opinion. Probably this was the initial view of Pope Benedict. …More
New magisterium could excommunicate SSPX for denying Vatican Council II when they say Jews need to convert and Catholics are the Chosen People of God.

The pope was forced to say that Bishop Richard Williamson had to accept the six million Holocaust figure, even though initially the Vatican spokesman said the bishop was free to have an opinion. Probably this was the initial view of Pope Benedict.

Then after worldwide political pressure he had to announce that the Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews was not for their conversion. Then he said that Jews do not have to convert in the present time.

Now he is being forced to excommunicate the Society of St.Pius X (SSPX).

Years back he did away with the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Neither did he correct the error of the Archbishop of Boston on invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire.

Vatican Council II unlike the ADL- magisterium for the Catholic Church says Catholics are ‘the new people of God’(Nostra Aetate 4) and that Jews and other non Catholics need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water to avoid Hell(for salvation).(Ad Gentes 7).

The ADL magisterium wants the SSPX excommunicated and the Vatican has issued a statement indicating just that.

What an age we live in! The pope says that Jews do not have to convert in the present times, a Catholic bishop cannot say that 5,999,999 or less people died in the terrible holocaust and the SSPX can be excommunicated for saying Jews need to convert and that Catholics are the Chosen People of God, according to Vatican Council II.

The new magisterium could excommunicate the SSPX for denying Vatican Council II when they say Jews need to convert for salvation and Catholics are the new people of God.

The SSPX has to state in public that they accept a Vatican Council II which says Jews do not have to convert and that Jews are the Chosen People of God even though there is no text in Vatican Council II which makes this claim.

Unless the SSPX accepts this Jewish Left version of Vatican Council II they are likely to be excommunicated by the magisterium this month, with the approval of the ADL and the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.-Lionel Andrades
Lionel Andrades
It’s time for cardinal, bishops and traditional religious groups to say openly that they accept Vatican Council II and reject the Jewish Left interpretation of the Council.

For instance on the subject of other religions, why do we have to accept new doctrine which is not even there in Vatican Council II?

They could clarify the issue point by point .Begin with the subject of ‘other religions’.

More
It’s time for cardinal, bishops and traditional religious groups to say openly that they accept Vatican Council II and reject the Jewish Left interpretation of the Council.

For instance on the subject of other religions, why do we have to accept new doctrine which is not even there in Vatican Council II?

They could clarify the issue point by point .Begin with the subject of ‘other religions’.

Interpretation 1: Vatican Council II says non Catholics do not have to convert in general for salvation. (LG 16).

Interpretation II: Vatican Council II says non Catholics need to convert in general for salvation (Ad Gentes 7, LG 14).

Interpretation II is the traditional teaching which the SSPX also endorses.

So the SSPX accepts Vatican Council II?

If the SSPX accepts Interpretation 2 then clarify it in public.

Interpretation 1. Vatican Council II says those saved in invincible ignorance, a good conscience, the seeds of the word are EXPLICIT EXCEPTIONS to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and to Ad Gentes 7 i.e all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation.

Interpretation 2: Vatican Council II says those saved in invincible ignorance etc are possibilities known to only God. There are no explicit exceptions to Ad Gentes 7 and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Call a Press Conference and clarify this issue or hold a conference and discuss the issue in public.

The doctrinal talks were held in secret. This is all just like a secret society, the Freemasons.

Cardinal Donald Wuerl and the US bishops give the Eucharist to pro abortion politicians, homosexuals and lesbians. Cardinal Wuerl was made a cardinal. The SSPX rejects Cardinal Sean O Malley and the ADL‘s interpretation of Vatican Council II and they are threatened in public with a second excommunication.

It’s time for cardinal, bishops and religious communities to openly say that they accept Vatican Council II and reject the Jewish Left interpretation of the Council: they affirm the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus in accord with Vatican Council II (AG 7,LG 14)

Affirm Lumen Gentium 16 (invincible ignorance) as a possibility known only to God so it is not in conflict with the dogma or the literal interpretation of outside the church no salvation.

Since LG 16 is not explicitly known Vatican Council II affirms the literal interpretation of the defined dogma.

This is also the interpretation of all the Catechisms, including the present one, Vatican Council I and II, the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 ( it refers to ‘the dogma’) other magisterial documents and Fr. Leonard Feeney of Boston who was not excommunicated for heresy.He was not excommunicated for saying the same thing as Vatican Council II and the dogma.


It is time to give a testimony of the Faith in public and affirm Vatican Council II, we accept Tradition ,we reject the Jewish Left version of the our Catholic Faith. Lionel Andrades
Lionel Andrades
Tuesday, April 3, 2012

Fr.James Martin S.J does not say the popes, the Bible and Jesus were anti-Semitic

Fr. James Martin, SJ in The Anti-Semitism of the Society of St.Pius X (Jan 31, 2009 America ) asks why would the pope move to lift the ban on a group that has as its raison d’etre the rejection of the Second Vatican Council which is an ecclesial-theological issue. He says this is a …More
Tuesday, April 3, 2012

Fr.James Martin S.J does not say the popes, the Bible and Jesus were anti-Semitic

Fr. James Martin, SJ in The Anti-Semitism of the Society of St.Pius X (Jan 31, 2009 America ) asks why would the pope move to lift the ban on a group that has as its raison d’etre the rejection of the Second Vatican Council which is an ecclesial-theological issue. He says this is a rejection of the documents of the Second Vatican Council, which includes a rejection of Nostra Aetate.

I think the SSPX in reality does not reject Vatican Council II according to the texts of the Council.Nostra Aetate 4 says the Church is' the new people of God'. While Ad Gentes 7 states all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation. This includes Jews.
Is Vatican Council II now anti Semitic for this Jesuit priest ?

SSPX is affirming Nostra Aetate 4 and Ad Gentes 7 even though they say they reject Vatican Council II. They reject Vatican Council II as interpreted by the Jewish Left.

Fr.Martin is really saying the SSPX rejects the documents of the Council, which includes Nostra Aetate, as interpreted by the Jewish Left.

There is no text in Nostra Aetate which says Jews do not have to convert or that Jews are saved in general in their religion.
That Catholics should have good relations with the Jews and others was taught to us by Jesus and it is explained in the Bible long before Vatican Council II.

So from the ecclesial-theological view the SSPX are in accord with Vatican Council II

Regarding other points against the SSPX, as being anti Semitic,some of the quotations are those of the popes. Other information comes from the Bible.

Fr.Martin does not say that the popes, the Bible and Jesus were anti-Semitic.
-Lionel Andrades

www.americamagazine.org/blog/entry.cfm
Lionel Andrades
Saturday, March 31, 2012

Cardinal Luis Ladaria S.J Secretary Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith does away with the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Limbo and Original Sin in the International Theological Commission position papers: CDF expects the Society of St.Pius X to accept all this

The International Theological Commission (ITC) has done away with the centuries-old literal…More
Saturday, March 31, 2012

Cardinal Luis Ladaria S.J Secretary Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith does away with the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Limbo and Original Sin in the International Theological Commission position papers: CDF expects the Society of St.Pius X to accept all this

The International Theological Commission (ITC) has done away with the centuries-old literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. The ITC places invincible ignorance as an explicit exception to the dogma. The passage quoted does not say that it is an explicit exception to the dogma or that these cases are known to us but ITC assumes that it refers to an exception to the dogma. (1)

Then the ITC says that the Church is only necessary for those who believe and know about Jesus (LG 14) and not for all people. The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II says all need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation. The ITC says only those who know.(2)

The ITC assumes that those who are in invincible ignorance and who can be saved ‘in certain circumstances’(Letter of the Holy Office 1949) are known to the ITC firstly, for them to be an exception to the dogma. Secondly the ITC is sure that these few cases could not receive the baptism of desire or that God could not send a preacher to them as St.Thomas Aquinas taught.The ITC assumes that they are taken up to Heaven without the baptism of water and so they are saved with Original Sin on their soul and that ITC knows who these cases are. Since ITC knows who is in invincible ignorance and saved on earth they probably assume that we know who knows about Jesus and the Church are saved ( even if they they have committed mortal sins we do not know about).

So Cardinal Luis Ladaria S.J (3) assumes that they are saved without the baptism of water and the ITC also knows who these cases are. So this is a rejection of the need to remove Original Sin in at least these few cases. They are saved without the baptism of water and the ITC knows these particular cases.For the rest of us ordinary Catholics these are hypothetical cases known only to God and the manner in which they are saved are known ONLY to God.

So the ITC has got rid of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, assumed that there are known cases of adults who are saved with Original Sin and without the baptism of water and since they know these cases saved, without the baptism of water, they assume that all infants can be saved because they are innocent and ignorant. In the final step the ITC issues a theological paper which speculates that there is no Limbo.

All this speculation began with the ITC assuming that those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are not known only to God but they are known to us humans. This is irrational. It is also a new teaching.

Here is the process again:

1.There can be non Catholics saved with visible baptism of desire and invincible ignorance and they are known to us as they live now in Heaven. Since we know these specific cases in heaven and on earth, they are exceptions to the dogma outside the church no salvation.

This seems ludicrous but please bear with me. This is serious stuff on a Vatican website.

2.Since there are these known and visible cases of non Catholics saved and known to us in Heaven Cardinal Luis Ladaria assumes that the baptism of water is not needed for all. Since the ITC knows these exceptional cases in particular and knows that they were saved without receiving the baptism of water or being sent a preacher as St.Thomas Aquinas taught.How does the ITC know all this ? I do not know.

3.Since it is possible, and known, that there are these exceptions to all needing to receive the baptism of water to go to Heaven, it is speculated that even infants in ignorance and innocence could be saved without the baptism of water. Since adults who are saved in this manner without the baptism of water are known to members of the ITC.

4.The next step is to do away with Limbo.

Cardinal Luis Ladaria S.J has removed the Church teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Original Sin in certain cases, and Limbo. It was all done with one objective error: the visibly known case of a non Catholic saved with the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance.

A priest welcomes an end to this teaching on Original Sin.(4)

The ITC position papers have been approved by Pope Benedict XVI and Cardinal William Levada, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.The ITC paper Christianity and World Religions was approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II. This paper was corrected in 2001 during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II with the Notification on Fr.Jacques Dupuis S.J which rejected the Theology of Religions.

ITC's Christianity and World Religions 1997 postulates that a theology of religions is possible. This is suggested even though the dogma taught exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church and that all non Catholics are oriented to Hell unless they convert into the Catholic Church (5).

The Society of St.Pius X are expected to accept all these heresies in the name of Vatican Council II.Cardinal Luis Ladaria S.J head the Vatican team in failed talks with the SSPX.
-Lionel Andrades

1.

The Allocution of Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadam (1854) clearly states the issues involved: “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it, will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who live in ignorance of the true religion, if such ignorance be invincible, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord”- 'The Hope of Salvation for Infants who die without being baptized'.(Note: It is assumed here that those saved in invincible ignorance are are explicit exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus).

2.

65. One speaks of the necessity of the Church for salvation in two senses: the necessity of belonging to the Church for those who believe in Jesus and the necessity for salvation of the ministry of the Church which, on mission from God, must be at the service of the coming of the kingdom of God. - Christianity and the World Religions 1997

67. Vatican Council II makes its own the expression extra ecclesiam nulla salus. But in using it the council explicitly directs itself to Catholics and limits its validity to those who know the necessity of the Church for salvation. The council holds that the affirmation is based on the necessity of faith and of baptism affirmed by Christ (LG 14). In this way the council aligned itself in continuity with the teaching of Pius XII, but emphasized more clearly the original parenthentical character of this expression.- Christianity and the World Religions 1997

3.

The study of the theme "Christianity and the World Religions" was adopted for study by a large majority of the members of the International Theological Commission. To prepare this study a subcommission was established composed of Bishop Norbert Strotmann Hoppe, M.S.C.; Rev. Barthelemy Adoukonou; Rev. Jean Corbon; Rev. Mario de Franca Miranda, S.J.; Rev. Ivan Golub; Rev. Tadahiko Iwashima, S.J.; Rev. Luis F. Ladaria, S.J. (president); Rev. Hermann J. Pottmeyer; and Rev. Andrzej Szostek, M.I.C. General discussion on this theme took place during several meetings of the subcommission and in the plenary sessions of the International Theological Commission held at Rome in 1993, 1994 and 1995. The present text was approved "in forma specifica" by vote of the commission on 30 September 1996 and was submitted to its president, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, who has given his approval for its publication.-Christianity and the World Religions 1997
www.vatican.va/…/rc_cti_1997_cri…4.

4.

Fr. Stephen Freeman Says:
October 31, 2006 at 10:59 am

Roland,

I do indeed think that is what Fr. Breck says in his comments – that the entire forensic metaphor is being shaken. From an Orthodox perspective I think this is good. The forensically imaged doctrine of Original Sin should be reconsidered as inadequate and not sufficiently ground in the Fathers or in Scripture. It’s use of a mistranslation of Romans 5:12 being only one example. Of course, much larger things are at stake. The governing imagery of our salvation. It’s why Orthodox and Roman Catholic can often be far apart. One would assume, that the immaculate conception, argued forensically, would also have to be reexamined. Gets kinda sticky! [...]
fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2006/10/22/in-limbo-no-more

5.
THRICE DEFINED DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

◦“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

◦“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

◦“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) - Catholicism.org
___________________________________________________

Nostra Aetate does say that the Church is the' new people of God'. Catholics are the Chosen People.They have the Promised Jewish Messiah, the Eternal Covenant and the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass

eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/nostra-aetate-d…

The International Theological Commission's position paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 has an objective factual error and is approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION ASSUMES ‘SEEDS OF THE WORD’ (VATICAN COUNCIL II ) IN OTHER RELIGIONS ARE KNOWN TO US AND THIS IS AN EXPLICIT EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vaticans-intern…
Lionel Andrades
Monday, April 2, 2012

IF THE SSPX SAYS THEY ACCEPT VATICAN COUNCIL II IN ACCORD WITH THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS THERE WILL BE A STORM

The Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith could have to deny Vatican Council II and the Jewish Left could call the Council anti - Semitic.

One of the District Superiors of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) could issue …More
Monday, April 2, 2012

IF THE SSPX SAYS THEY ACCEPT VATICAN COUNCIL II IN ACCORD WITH THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS THERE WILL BE A STORM

The Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith could have to deny Vatican Council II and the Jewish Left could call the Council anti - Semitic.

One of the District Superiors of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) could issue a statement observing that it is reported on blogs that the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus is in accord with Vatican Council II (AG 7).

All need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation (AG 7) and there are no exceptions. There are no known exceptions since those saved in invincible ignorance or with a good conscience (LG 16) etc are known only to God. So they do not contradict the centuries-old literal interpretation of the thrice defined dogma.

So in this sense Vatican Council II is saying outside the church there is no salvation and Jews, Muslims and other non Catholics (Protestants and Orthodox Christians) need to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation ( to avoid Hell).

So the SSPX could welcome Vatican Council II’s position on ecumenism and inter religious dialogue.

All non Catholics are oriented to Hell (AG 7). We do not compel them; we do not force them to enter the Church. We do not have the power to do so. However we do have the religious liberty to tell them that Vatican Council II says they need to convert into the Church, all of them with no known exceptions, to avoid Hell (for salvation).


Imagine the world wide storm this would cause. The SSPX affirming Vatican Council II in this case in accord with the salvation dogma!

But what about Fr. Leonard Feeney?!So what? Whatever be your position on Fr. Leonard Feeney, Vatican Council II still affirms the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

He was excommunicated for holding the literal interpretation? No Magisterial text, including the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 states that he was excommunicated for heresy. And assuming he was - Vatican Council II is still in agreement with the traditional literal interpretation of the dogma.

And if he was excommunicated for heresy, for saying there was no baptism of desire or exception to the dogma, then the cardinals who wrote the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 or Pope Pius XII, made an objective, common sense mistake: the baptism of desire is not known so it cannot be an explicit, exception to the dogma which says everyone needs to convert into the Church. We do not know any one saved with the baptism of desire.

How can the ordinary magisterium of the pope, Pope Pius XII, negate Vatican Council II or the dogma which Pope Pius XII himself called an ‘infallible statement’(Letter of the Holy Office 1949).

All the same Vatican Council II affirms the literal interpretation of the dogma, the infallible statement.

According to the Vatican statement,(March 16) there is the possibility of the SSPX being excommunicated unless they affirm Vatican Council II. The statement has not mentioned the interpretation of Vatican Council II expected. The Vatican kept the doctrinal talks secret.So the SSPX could ‘try the waters out’ affirm the dogma (as they are doing so already) and welcome Vatican Council II as being in agreement with the dogma. Then wait for the Vatican’s response.

This will create a political storm and shake the Establishment which tells the pope what he should believe as a Catholic and what is acceptable to them.-Lionel Andrades

eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/if-sspx-says-th…
Lionel Andrades
Monday, April 2, 2012

VATICAN COUNCIL II SAYS JEWS NEED TO CONVERT, CATHOLICS ARE THE NEW PEOPLE OF GOD BUT REPORT ON SSPX CLAIMS VATICAN COUNCIL II SAYS OTHERWISE

An Associated Press report,Vatican to breakaway traditionalists: not enough by Frances D'Emilio (VCstar.com)says the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) 'has opposed the Vatican's decades-long outreach to Jews, Muslims and …More
Monday, April 2, 2012

VATICAN COUNCIL II SAYS JEWS NEED TO CONVERT, CATHOLICS ARE THE NEW PEOPLE OF GOD BUT REPORT ON SSPX CLAIMS VATICAN COUNCIL II SAYS OTHERWISE

An Associated Press report,Vatican to breakaway traditionalists: not enough by Frances D'Emilio (VCstar.com)says the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) 'has opposed the Vatican's decades-long outreach to Jews, Muslims and members of other faith. More broadly, it opposes the liberalizing reforms the Vatican enacted in the 1960s.'

However a reading of Vatican Council II’s Nostra Aetate 4 says ‘the Church is the new people of God’.Catholics are the new people of God . The Chosen People.Then Vatican Council II further says that all people, Jews included, need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation (Ad Gentes 7). Jews need to enter the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water to avoid Hell (for salvation).

So Vatican Council II is still saying like the SSPX that Jews, Muslims and other non Catholics, including Protestants and Orthodox Christians, need to enter the Catholic Church for salvation.

So the so called liberalizing reforms is not supported by any text from Vatican Council II.

Vatican Council II also mentions that there can be non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance, with a good consicence (LG 16), with the ‘seeds of the Word’ etc. We accept this as a possibility just as did the popes and Church Councils of the past. They knew that we do not know any particular case. So they are not an explicit, exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or to Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentium 14, Vatican Council II.

Vatican Council II is in accord with the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus .

Vatican Council II has not changed the teaching of the Catholic Church with respect to other religions as this report on the internet alleges.


The AP report says ‘Jewish groups have expressed concern that the Vatican's overture to the breakaway Catholics could call into question 50 years of progress in Catholic-Jewish relations.’ It is the Jewish Left political position that Vatican Council II has changed church-teaching. They are unable to cite any reference from Vatican Council II.

The report states: ‘A Vatican statement, issued after Friday's meeting, said both Benedict, and Levada's office, studied the Society's response to the papal overture. But the response, delivered to the Vatican in January, "is not sufficient to overcome the doctrinal problems that are at the foundation of the fracture between the Holy See and the Society."

The Vatican has never announced that Vatican Council II states that Catholics are the new people of God and that Jews need to convert to avoid Hell, according to Vatican Council II. Instead the Vatican is building up a reputation of throwing away Catholic doctrine for the sake of peace and security.

The report says ‘the statement didn't elaborate on what failed to satisfy the Vatican's conditions.’ The Vatican has held secret talks with the SSPX however two of the negotiators during those talks, have expressed Catholic doctrine in papers of the International Theological Commission. They are available on the ITC website.They allege that those saved with the baptism of water and in invincible ignorance are known to us and so they are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Ad Gentes 7. This is heresy. It is a rejection of the Nicene Creed in which we say “I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin”. The ITC is saying that in some cases, rare cases, known to them there are non Catholics saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance and without the baptism of water. How do they know these cases it is not elaborated. However the bottom line for the ITC and the Vatican is that there is salvation outside the church in the present times,even though they do not know any exception to the dogma or Vatican Council II.

This is a new doctrine and irrational. Hence it is understandable that the Vatican has not elaborated on the precise doctrinal difference and has kept the issue secret.

The report said ‘Because of "worry about avoiding a church rupture with painful and incalculable consequences," Fellow was invited to "clarify his position with the aim of closing the existing fracture, as hoped for by Pope Benedict XVI," said the Vatican statement.’

The SSPX could be excommunicated for not accepting the Jewish Left approved version of Vatican Council II, denying the actual text of Vatican Council II which says Jews need to convert and Catholics are the Chosen people, and not accepting heresy and new doctrines, approved by the Vatican.-Lionel Andrades
www.vcstar.com/…/bc-eu--vatican-…

eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vatican-council…
Lionel Andrades
Sunday, April 1, 2012

NO NEED FOR ‘SECRET TALKS’ ANYMORE: WE KNOW THE HERETICAL POSITION OF THE VATICAN NEGOTIATORS

The International Theological Commission theological papers expose the cardinal and bishop’s teaching on visible baptism of desire and their rejection of the dogma and Vatican Council II text.

May be its unintentional heresy. Let us give them the benefit of the doubt,…More
Sunday, April 1, 2012

NO NEED FOR ‘SECRET TALKS’ ANYMORE: WE KNOW THE HERETICAL POSITION OF THE VATICAN NEGOTIATORS

The International Theological Commission theological papers expose the cardinal and bishop’s teaching on visible baptism of desire and their rejection of the dogma and Vatican Council II text.

May be its unintentional heresy. Let us give them the benefit of the doubt, but heresy it is.

In the hierarchy of truths we are all obliged to believe in the Creed. In the Nicene Creed we pray ‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin.’ It means the baptism of water is needed for all. All means no known exceptions in the present time.This teaching is expressed in the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and it comes from Jesus’ teaching (John 3:5, Mk.15:15-16).

Perhaps as an oversight , two of the members of the Vatican team who participated in the discussion with the SSPX representatives, believe invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicit, known,defacto exceptions to the dogma and the Nicene Creed. They believe they are explicit exceptions to the need of the baptism of water being needed for salvation for all.We know that the Catholic Church gives the baptism of water to adults with Catholic Faith.The Vatican team is saying that not all adults need the baptism of water since there are some who are saved or will be saved in invincible ignorance etc. Irrational ? However this is their official position on the ITC website.

Invincible ignorance etc are exceptions to the traditional interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to the former President International Theologcial Commission (ITC), Cardinal Luis Ladaria S.J and the former Secretary of the ITC, Bishop. Charles Morerod O.P.(former Rector of the Angelicum University,Rome).


They allege that Vatican Council II (LG 16) shows there are known exceptions.Discerning Catholics know that we do not know anyone saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire.This was the error of the Archbishop of Boston Cardinal Richard Cushing and the Jesuits there.

The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 addressed to the Archbishop of Boston does not state that we know cases of non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance or an “unconscious yearning” or desire and that these cases are exceptions to the dogma.

However Cadinal Ladaria, Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and past President of the ITC has assumed that being saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are explicit, known exceptions to the thrice defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

This is an objective, factual error. We do not know any such case .No Vatican magisterial document makes this claim.

It is this error and interpretation of Vatican Council II that the Congergation for the Doctrine of the Faith expected the SSPX team to accept in closed door, secret talks.

The heretical position of two of the Vatican negotiators is now known to us through their writings in the ITC papers and is available on the Vatican website of the ITC.


They may say in public that they accept the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and also Vatican Council II. However if they assume that invincible ignorance,having a good conscience and the baptism of desire are explicit exceptions to the dogma and Ad Gentes 7 then it is irrational-and also a rejection of the centuries old interpretation of the dogma.

It is the Secretary of the CDF who is rejecting Vatican Council II (AG 7) and he expects the SSPX and all Catholics to endorse his heretical version of Lumen Gentium 16 (invincible ignorance).

It is saying there is salvation outside the church since we allegedly know cases of those saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire.


Whatever be ones position on Fr.Leonard Feeney, mentioned by the ITC, objectively we know there are no known cases of the baptism of desire or persons saved in invincible ignorance.So there cannot be a known exception to the dogma.To claim one knows particular exeptions is heresy. It is also irrational.

A Catholic cannot reject in public an ex cathedra dogma and then also hold the office of a cardinal and bishop as in the case of Cardinal Ladaria and Bishop Morerod.According to Canon Law priests, bishops and cardinals who hold an office in the Church need to accept those teachings which have to be ‘firmly believed’.(Dominus Iesus).

Now it is no more a secret to Catholics that it is the CDF Secretary who needs to affirm Vatican Council II, the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as it was interpreted for centuries ( and in accord now with Vatican Council II ) and Lumen Gentium 16, not being an explicit exception to the dogma and Ad Gentes 7.

Its unfortunate that the Vatican has annonced that the SSPX has to regularise its canonical status by accepting not just Vatican Council II as an historical event (which the SSPX does) but that they need to accept the heretical interpretation of the Vatican team approved by the CDF for secret talks with the SSPX.-Lionel Andrades

NO CANON LAW OBLIGES THE SSPX TO ACCEPT THE JEWISH LEFT VERSION OF VATICAN COUNCIL II
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/no-canon-law-ob…

Cardinal Luis Ladaria S.J Secretary Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith does away with the defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, Limbo and Original Sin in the International Theological Commission position papers: CDF expects the Society of St.Pius X to accept all this
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/cardinal-luis-l…

Mnsgr.Nicola Bux the SSPX in reality accepts Vatican Council II
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/mnsgrnicola-bux…

International Theological Commission (ITC) makes an objective, factual error in two of its published documents. Could they also be wrong about Limbo?
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vaticans-intern…

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION USES PREMISE THAT IS FACTUALLY INCORRECT : LIMBO
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

The International Theological Commission's position paper Christianity and the World Religions 1997 has an objective factual error and is approved by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : invincible ignorance is not an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus

eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION ASSUMES ‘SEEDS OF THE WORD’ (VATICAN COUNCIL II ) IN OTHER RELIGIONS ARE KNOWN TO US AND THIS IS AN EXPLICIT EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/international-t…

VATICAN'S INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION MAKES AN ERROR IN ITS POSITION PAPER CHRISTIANITY AND THE WORLD RELIGIONS

eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vaticans-intern…

VATICAN COUNCIL II REJECTS THE THEOLOGY OF RELIGIONS

eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/vatican-council…

Former Secretary of the International Theological Commission holds that those saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance are known to us and so an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/secretary-of-in…
eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/…/no-need-for-sec…