Pachamama Throws the Friends of Francis Into Confusion - by Father Reto Nay
Francis’ spin doctor, Andrea Tornielli, bewailed on VaticanNews.va (October 22) what he calls “the sad episode of the theft and destruction of Amazonian images.” He presents these “images” as “…More
Francis’ spin doctor, Andrea Tornielli, bewailed on VaticanNews.va (October 22) what he calls “the sad episode of the theft and destruction of Amazonian images.”
He presents these “images” as “wooden statuettes of the Amazonian tradition depicting a young pregnant woman,” and even as “an effigy of motherhood and the sacredness of life” which he relates to Francis of Assisi’s mentioning of “mother earth" in his Canticle of the Sun. Tornielli carefully avoids any reference to paganism.
But then, suddenly, he turns to the Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (1878) where John Hendry Newman speaks – Tornielli’s words – about “the Church’s acceptance of pagan elements,”
“The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the …More
He presents these “images” as “wooden statuettes of the Amazonian tradition depicting a young pregnant woman,” and even as “an effigy of motherhood and the sacredness of life” which he relates to Francis of Assisi’s mentioning of “mother earth" in his Canticle of the Sun. Tornielli carefully avoids any reference to paganism.
But then, suddenly, he turns to the Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (1878) where John Hendry Newman speaks – Tornielli’s words – about “the Church’s acceptance of pagan elements,”
“The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the …More
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GChevalier
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Pachamama plonge les amis de François dans la confusion - par le Père Reto Nay
catholique.forumactif.com/t554-news-au-24-octobre-2019
Andrea Tornielli, le doreur d'image de François, a pleuré sur VaticanNews.va (22 octobre) ce qu'il appelle « le triste épisode du vol et de la destruction des images amazoniennes ».
Il présente ces « images » comme des « statuettes en bois de la tradition amazonienne …More
Pachamama plonge les amis de François dans la confusion - par le Père Reto Nay
catholique.forumactif.com/t554-news-au-24-octobre-2019
Andrea Tornielli, le doreur d'image de François, a pleuré sur VaticanNews.va (22 octobre) ce qu'il appelle « le triste épisode du vol et de la destruction des images amazoniennes ».
Il présente ces « images » comme des « statuettes en bois de la tradition amazonienne représentant une jeune femme enceinte », et même comme « une effigie de la maternité et du caractère sacré de la vie » qu'il rapporte à la mention par François d'Assise de la « mère terre » dans son Cantique du Soleil. Tornielli évite soigneusement toute référence au paganisme.
Mais soudain, il se tourne vers l'Essai sur le développement de la doctrine chrétienne (1878) où John Henry Newman parle - les paroles de Tornielli - de « l'acceptation par l'Église des éléments païens ».
Luis Badilla, un autre doreur d'image de François, n'a pas aimé l'explication de Tornielli.
Il appelle ses arguments sur IlSismografo.Blogspot.com (22 octobre) « trompeurs et insidieux », insistant sur le fait que dans le cas des statues « il n'y a pas "adoption par l'Église d'éléments païens" ».
Badilla insiste sur le fait que « personne », y compris François, le Synode ou le porte-parole du Vatican, n'a jamais dit que la Pachamama était « un élément païen à adopter par l'Église ». Il l'appelle « un objet comme tant d'autres » apporté au Synode comme un don.
Mais alors, malheureusement, Badilla se jette sous le bus en disant : « Dans ce cas, il n'y a jamais eu d'adoption d'éléments païens dans la liturgie de l'Église. »
Pardonnez-moi ! A-t-il si vite oublié l'adoration de la Pachamama dans les Jardins du Vatican à laquelle François participait avec tant d'enthousiasme ?
[Et moi j'ajoute : Ils ont promené la Pachamama en procession. Or ils disent que ce ne sont que des objets. Parfait ! Je vous conseille donc d'organiser une procession qui porterait, par exemple, vos ordinateurs ! Qu'en pensez-vous ?]
catholique.forumactif.com/t554-news-au-24-octobre-2019
Andrea Tornielli, le doreur d'image de François, a pleuré sur VaticanNews.va (22 octobre) ce qu'il appelle « le triste épisode du vol et de la destruction des images amazoniennes ».
Il présente ces « images » comme des « statuettes en bois de la tradition amazonienne représentant une jeune femme enceinte », et même comme « une effigie de la maternité et du caractère sacré de la vie » qu'il rapporte à la mention par François d'Assise de la « mère terre » dans son Cantique du Soleil. Tornielli évite soigneusement toute référence au paganisme.
Mais soudain, il se tourne vers l'Essai sur le développement de la doctrine chrétienne (1878) où John Henry Newman parle - les paroles de Tornielli - de « l'acceptation par l'Église des éléments païens ».
Luis Badilla, un autre doreur d'image de François, n'a pas aimé l'explication de Tornielli.
Il appelle ses arguments sur IlSismografo.Blogspot.com (22 octobre) « trompeurs et insidieux », insistant sur le fait que dans le cas des statues « il n'y a pas "adoption par l'Église d'éléments païens" ».
Badilla insiste sur le fait que « personne », y compris François, le Synode ou le porte-parole du Vatican, n'a jamais dit que la Pachamama était « un élément païen à adopter par l'Église ». Il l'appelle « un objet comme tant d'autres » apporté au Synode comme un don.
Mais alors, malheureusement, Badilla se jette sous le bus en disant : « Dans ce cas, il n'y a jamais eu d'adoption d'éléments païens dans la liturgie de l'Église. »
Pardonnez-moi ! A-t-il si vite oublié l'adoration de la Pachamama dans les Jardins du Vatican à laquelle François participait avec tant d'enthousiasme ?
[Et moi j'ajoute : Ils ont promené la Pachamama en procession. Or ils disent que ce ne sont que des objets. Parfait ! Je vous conseille donc d'organiser une procession qui porterait, par exemple, vos ordinateurs ! Qu'en pensez-vous ?]
Holy Cannoli
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Personally I think that too much is made over this Packyomama deal but I couldn’t help but have a few ideas.
Perhaps I’ve watched too many crime movies but, although I truly admire the actions of those involved in the “theft”, I believe the entire saga could have been more effective.
Yes, take the Packyomamas but replace them with statues of the Virgin. In fact, remove all that Indian c*ap …More
Personally I think that too much is made over this Packyomama deal but I couldn’t help but have a few ideas.
Perhaps I’ve watched too many crime movies but, although I truly admire the actions of those involved in the “theft”, I believe the entire saga could have been more effective.
Yes, take the Packyomamas but replace them with statues of the Virgin. In fact, remove all that Indian c*ap and take that too. Secondly, make sure that all those involved are masked and film the entire event from start to finish. Now, this is the most important point. Don’t throw the goofy statues into the Tiber. Although this has a nice dramatic effect and would be great if this were a movie, throwing them into the river would prevent doing what I am now about to suggest.
Wait a month or two then put the Pachyomamas on Ebay. Include the film taken which will verify that these are the real Pachyomamas and not some phony, plastic banana, good time rock & roll imitations.
Starting price $4000 and then let the bidding begin. Now the coup de grâce would be to take any money that was received and donate it (anonymously) to a pro-life organization.
It’s a win – win. You remove the goofy Pachyomamas and replace them with the Blessed Mother (that sticks it to the brainless, ecumenical, do-gooders in the Vatican) then you take the money received from selling these (authentic ancient Indian artifacts) and give it to pro-lifers. All of it done anonymously. What’s not to like?
Perhaps I’ve watched too many crime movies but, although I truly admire the actions of those involved in the “theft”, I believe the entire saga could have been more effective.
Yes, take the Packyomamas but replace them with statues of the Virgin. In fact, remove all that Indian c*ap and take that too. Secondly, make sure that all those involved are masked and film the entire event from start to finish. Now, this is the most important point. Don’t throw the goofy statues into the Tiber. Although this has a nice dramatic effect and would be great if this were a movie, throwing them into the river would prevent doing what I am now about to suggest.
Wait a month or two then put the Pachyomamas on Ebay. Include the film taken which will verify that these are the real Pachyomamas and not some phony, plastic banana, good time rock & roll imitations.
Starting price $4000 and then let the bidding begin. Now the coup de grâce would be to take any money that was received and donate it (anonymously) to a pro-life organization.
It’s a win – win. You remove the goofy Pachyomamas and replace them with the Blessed Mother (that sticks it to the brainless, ecumenical, do-gooders in the Vatican) then you take the money received from selling these (authentic ancient Indian artifacts) and give it to pro-lifers. All of it done anonymously. What’s not to like?
Speaking as an attorney, I would say that the Pachamama idols that were the actual ones involved here would never be able to be sold on ebay. Ebay is a U.S. based corporation. Technically, the idols were stolen, and in the U.S., stolen items cannot lawfully be sold to a third party. Personally, I would have smashed them with a hammer before throwing them into the Tiber; however, I stand in solidarity …More
Speaking as an attorney, I would say that the Pachamama idols that were the actual ones involved here would never be able to be sold on ebay. Ebay is a U.S. based corporation. Technically, the idols were stolen, and in the U.S., stolen items cannot lawfully be sold to a third party. Personally, I would have smashed them with a hammer before throwing them into the Tiber; however, I stand in solidarity with those soldiers of Christ.
Holy Cannoli
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Good point.
After advice from Legal Counsel as to the best course of action, I will amend my suggesting that the Packyomamas be sold on Ebay. Instead they can be sold surreptitiously (perhaps at a greater price) to a party or parties sought out on the dark web. As much as we are repulsed by how these artifacts were used, they can be considered works of art. As such, I would sell them. Do it for …More
Good point.
After advice from Legal Counsel as to the best course of action, I will amend my suggesting that the Packyomamas be sold on Ebay. Instead they can be sold surreptitiously (perhaps at a greater price) to a party or parties sought out on the dark web. As much as we are repulsed by how these artifacts were used, they can be considered works of art. As such, I would sell them. Do it for the money.
I am not an attorney but I think like one.
After advice from Legal Counsel as to the best course of action, I will amend my suggesting that the Packyomamas be sold on Ebay. Instead they can be sold surreptitiously (perhaps at a greater price) to a party or parties sought out on the dark web. As much as we are repulsed by how these artifacts were used, they can be considered works of art. As such, I would sell them. Do it for the money.
I am not an attorney but I think like one.
Ultraviolet
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@Holy Cannoli My inner antiquities dealer applauds your steadfast dedication to fencing stolen works of primitive art. Though on that last point, I wonder how much you'd actually get for them since they're clearly modern era products and there's no established provenance they have any particular ethnographic rarity. I mean, we're not talking about an antique New Guinea Asmat cannibal fetish. Those …More
@Holy Cannoli My inner antiquities dealer applauds your steadfast dedication to fencing stolen works of primitive art. Though on that last point, I wonder how much you'd actually get for them since they're clearly modern era products and there's no established provenance they have any particular ethnographic rarity. I mean, we're not talking about an antique New Guinea Asmat cannibal fetish. Those idols look like tourist junk.
Regardless of their actual value, my inner zealot insists DJRESQ has the right of it, even if they were ancient and literally priceless. They were used to profane a Catholic church. Smash them, then burn them, a purifying act which has centuries of rich Catholic tradition behind it. Film it, and post the vid on multiple online venues so the Vatican can't lie (as they have) and claim, "oh we found 'em and they're all okay 'n stuff."
Regardless of their actual value, my inner zealot insists DJRESQ has the right of it, even if they were ancient and literally priceless. They were used to profane a Catholic church. Smash them, then burn them, a purifying act which has centuries of rich Catholic tradition behind it. Film it, and post the vid on multiple online venues so the Vatican can't lie (as they have) and claim, "oh we found 'em and they're all okay 'n stuff."
Tornielli et al. Stop writing. Start diving.
Tribunus Classis Imperialis
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They might start near the Cloaca magna
Novella Nurney
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It has to be full considering the spewing of filth from this synod.
De Profundis
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How to make Catholics happy
Seidenspinner
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Here is another of Francis' spin doctors
Don Reto Nay
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It is clear that Ivereigh is REALLY sorry for his idols
Novella Nurney
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Ivereigh is a particularly obnoxious, arrogant, sycophantic TWIT. For some reason He really galls me. I think it's his slimy way of perverting even the most genuinely charitable of Catholics defense of Christ and his CHURCH into some type of " hate speech". Disgusting.
Seidenspinner
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Austen really really loves the idols. The hill the Modernists choose to die on.