I've known two TLM priests who were formerly trained by the SSPX, and one independent priest who supports the SSPX fully. The influence of the SSPX is evident in the traditionalist movement in the Church, and the promotion and preservation of orthodoxy - hardly a group of men in schism. Yes it is true that Lefebvre was a Council Father, however as we all know the modernist bishops (mostly French, and German) threw out the schema, and replaced it with their radical agenda. Lefebvre eventually realized this conspiracy.

Ultraviolet seems to have lost all touch with reality in their blind hatred for one of the greatest Bishops to have graced the Catholic Church....very puzzling how Ultraviolet is trying to launch an entirely different non-reality from the truth....Gaslighting....?

ULTRAVIOLET QUOTE:
"Abp. Lefebvre abided by Vatican Council II's reforms until 1988 (1988-1962= 25 years allowing for a few months)."

Ultraviolet, you appear to be living in an alternate universe. Perhaps if you learned the facts you would have less animosity for such a heroic prelate to whom the Church is immeasurably indebted.

HISTORICAL FACTS ON LEFEBVRE'S REJECTION OF MODERNISM BEGINNING IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE COUNCIL:

Ultraviolet appears to be inexplicably unaware that:

Archbishop Lefebvre informed Pope Paul VI of his resignation as Superior General of the Holy Ghost Fathers in as early as 1968 following an Extraordinary General Chapter of the Holy Ghost Fathers which was convened in Rome in September 1968 to debate the direction of the congregation after the changes of the Second Vatican Council, as his confreres were so swept away by the "Spirit of Renewal of Vatican II" that they were preparing to jettison virtually everything belonging to Tradition and to their founding charism and refused to listen to his words of caution concerning the Modernist reforms.

And this is what transpired immediately following his resignation:

"After retiring from the post of Superior General of the Holy Ghost Fathers, Lefebvre was approached by traditionalists from the French Seminary in Rome who had been refused tonsure, the rite by which, until 1973, a seminarian became a cleric. They asked for a conservative seminary to complete their studies.

"After directing them to the University of Fribourg, Switzerland, Lefebvre was urged to teach these seminarians personally. In 1969, he received permission from the local bishop to establish a seminary in Fribourg which opened with nine students, moving to Écône, Switzerland in 1971.

"Lefebvre proposed to his seminarians the establishment of a society of priests without vows. In November 1970, Bishop François Charrière of Fribourg established, on a provisional (ad experimentum) basis for six years, the International Priestly Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) as a "pious union".

_____________________________

And....as they say..."The rest is history...."....REAL history....

Clearly.....Archbishop Lefebvre's adherence, defense and preservation of Tradition -- as well as his resistance to the inroads of Modernism, with a reputation to that effect that was so well established that seminarians came and appealed to him to establish a traditional seminary -- began immediately after the Council, and continued unabated until his death.

I suggest your correct your misapprehensions and the misinformation you are spreading against this great Prelate.

Historical Fact #1 (from Wiki) " In 1960, Pope John XXIII appointed Lefebvre to the Central Preparatory Commission for the Second Vatican Council." Historical Fact #2: based on the date of of his schism Abp. Lefebvre abided by Vatican Council II's reforms until 1988 (1988-1962= 25 years allowing for a few months).

He was appointed to the great Modernist upheval by the Pope himself. He remained part of the Modernist upheval for the next 25 years. He started "obeying God" only after the Vatican denied him the right to consecrate his own bishops. These are historical facts. I defy you @Ave Crux to show evidence these incidents did not occur as Wiki documented them.

Abp. Lelebvre can write whatever he wants to justify his schism just like he did whatever he wanted which was schism..

The final decision wasn't his to make. The Church warned him:
a.) he was wrong
b.) it was schism
c.) what would happen if he continued.

Pope John Paul II was the Supreme Pontiff and he had the final say, not Abp Lefebvre. That guy simply refused to accept that fact just like you do, decades later.

"Lefebvre will be vindicated and canonized for the decisive and pivotal role he played..."

The Patriarch of Constaninople's Schismatic Fan Club was probably saying the same thing back in 1054 A.D. They're still waiting.... ;-)

I'm surprised you haven't gotten the ball rolling already. ;-) Surely by now you can talk yourself into a few bogus miracles from Abp. Lefebvre intercession. Didn't he help cure your ingrown toe-nails or something?

Just don't try claiming "Saint" Lefebvre miraculously cured your constipation, since you're still full of it.

In regard to my earlier response regarding Ultraviolet's absolutely incomprehensible, baseless and entirely false -- even ludicrous -- characterizations of Archbishop Lefebvre as both a "modernist" who didn't get his way and "went along with the Spirit of Vatican Council II for 25 years" (!!!!!?????) and "schismatic", I quote from Lefebvre in a 1980 sermon:

"We are not rebels, we are not schismatics, we are not heretics. We resist. We resist this wave of Modernism which has invaded the Church, this wave of laicism, of progressivism which has invaded the Church in a wholly unwarranted manner and which has tried to erase in the Church all that was sacred in it, all that was supernatural, divine, in order to reduce it to the dimension of man."

Actually, Ultraviolet is re-writing history in an incredibly blatant manner -- otherwise, they are woefully uninformed.
HISTORICAL FACT: Archbishop Lefebvre prepared othrodox, dogmatically sound schemas over several years as a basis for Council deliberations. These schemas were rejected by the Modernist insurrectionists almost immediately following the opening of the Council precisely for their water-tight orthodoxy which would have prevented hijacking the Council.

I think Ultraviolet is either woefully uninformed, or blinded by what appears to be a pathological hatred for one of the most heroic and consequential Bishops in the history of the Catholic Church. Lefebvre will be vindicated and canonized for the decisive and pivotal role he played in assuring the preservation of our Catholic Patrimony when virtually all of Rome had fallen under the spell of Modernism.

Stop re-writing re-writing history @Ave Crux Abp. Lefebvre was part of Vatican Council II's Central Preparatory Commission and appointed by Pope John XXIII. That means he WAS a "modernist". He also went along with the "Spirit of Vatican Council II" for 25 years after that. It was only when when the Vatican didn't let him do what he wanted, that's when he got "religious". That isn't obeying God. That's a spoiled child running away from home.

"I will let the renowned author and apologist Michael Davies -- highly respected and well-known in Rome....."

You do that: I will let the renowned author and Catholic Pope John Paul II - highly respected and currently a Catholic saint contradict your layman as he already did in the Apostolic Letter " Ecclesia Dei"

--3.) In itself, this act was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act. In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops on 17 June last, Mons. Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.--

Pope John Paul II condemned Abp. Lefebvre's "schismatic act" and the excommunication that resulted from it.

A Catholic Pope beats laity apologists every time. A Vatican Apostolic Letter beats an interview any day of the week, at least for Catholics.

Schismatics are a different story. They've spent the last thirty years or so ignoring the Pope and The Church in favor of their own writers. Why stop now, eh?

SSPX IN "SCHISM"....?

Archbishop Lefebvre obeyed God rather than corrupt Modernists motivated by a vile hatred for the Church's Patrimony and Her influence in the world.

Archbishop Lefebvre had firsthand knowledge at the Council as one of the "periti" -- Key Church leaders at Vatican II -- who had been tasked by the Holy Father with preparing the necessary schemas that would guide the Council, only to witness the Modernists causing a rebellion immediately after the Council began, and completely trashing the preparatory documents, derailing and hijacking the Council.

As a Prelate with such firsthand knowledge, he was keenly aware of the work of destruction taking place during the 20 years following Vatican II under the guise of the "Council's Renewal", of the fact that Vatican II never called for the demolition of the Mass of the Ages, and hence, that all such efforts were not the work of God, but that of the Church's enemies.

Furthermore, no Catholic can be excommunicated who -- armed with such explicit, first hand knowledge of the facts -- acts with certitude and knowledge of true necessity as Archbishop Lefebvre did....i.e. such "excommunications" are of no effect given the intention and knowledge of the individual acting.

I will let the renowned author and apologist Michael Davies -- highly respected and well-known in Rome (see photo of Michael Davies with then-Cardinal Ratzinger) -- explain the nature of schism and how it does not apply in the least to Archbishop Lefebvre:

_____________

MICHAEL DAVIES:

"The distinction between disobedience and schism is made very clear in the article on schism in the very authoritative Dictionnaire de Theologie Catholique.

"The article is by Father Yves Congar who is certainly no friend of Archbishop Lefebvre. He explains that schism and disobedience...are often confused.

"Father Congar writes that schism involves a refusal to accept the existence of legitimate authority in the Church, for example, Luther's rejection of the papacy. Father Congar explains that the refusal to accept a decision of legitimate authority in a particular instance does not constitute schism but disobedience.

"The Catholic Encyclopedia explains that for a Catholic to be truly schismatic he would have to intend "to sever himself from the Church as far as in him lies." It adds that "not every disobedience is schism; in order to possess this character it must include besides the transgression of the command of the superiors, a denial of their divine right to command."

"Not only does Mgr. Lefebvre not deny the divine right of the Pope to command, but he affirms repeatedly his recognition of the Pope's authority and his intention of never breaking away from Rome.

"The Archbishop made his attitude clear in the July/August 1989 issue of 30 Days: 'We pray for the Pope every day. Nothing has changed with the consecrations last June 30. We are not sedevacantists. We recognize in John Paul II the legitimate Pope of the Catholic Church. We don't even say that he is a heretical Pope. We only say that his Modernist actions favor heresy.'

[....]

"On 16 May 1989, a heartbreaking event took place which can only be interpreted as indicating that Mgr. Lefebvre was correct in his pessimistic assessment of the Holy Father's will to confront the Liberal establishment within the Church.

"The Commission Ecclesia Dei, established after the consecrations to represent the interests of traditional Catholics, had gone to a great deal of trouble in drawing up a decree to implement the Pope's own clearly expressed wish in the document after which the Commission was named, that all the necessary measures should be taken to guarantee respect for the rightful aspirations of those attached to the traditional Latin liturgy.

"The decree would have removed all the restrictions imposed upon the celebration of the Tridentine Mass.

"On 16 May 1989, the Pope met Cardinal Hume, the leaders of three other European episcopal conferences, and members of the Curia, and [Pope John Paul II] capitulated to their demands that he should not allow the Ecclesia Dei decree to be published.

"It seems that the Pope also surrendered to their demands to bring a virtual halt to the granting of celebrets permitting traditionally-minded priests to celebrate the traditional Mass.

"Even the ultra-papalist Wanderer accepted that this must give good reason for supporters of Archbishop Lefebvre to say: 'I told you so!'"
__________________________

This is not even remotely about schism....it is about a faithful, courageous Archbishop who -- alone -- did his eternal duty before Almighty God to pass on what he had received, and not surrender our Patrimony to the wolves who are fully intent on burying and destroying it.

For this reason, the growing -- ever more manifest -- crisis in the Church, clearly apparent from the outset in the years immediately following the Council, with the emptying of seminaries and convents, the widespread liturgical and sacramental abuses under the name of "Renewal", is now -- and ever has been -- more than ample justification for the continued ministry of SSPX throughout the Universal Church.

Thanks be to God for their presence in the Church during these past 50 years of liturgical destruction and Modernist pillaging of our Catholic Faith and rightful inheritance.