The spirit of Archbishop Lefebvre.

@Mathathias Maccabeus
Ave Crux is feeling miffed at the moment and "blocked" me out of spite. Since your reply to me falls under "her" comment, I must reply to you up here. Proving once again, "blocking" is little more than an inconvenience.

"Sorry for misgendering you, @Ultraviolet,..."

Still an assumption on your part! :D I repeat: you made an assumption. I didn't say whether the first was a correct assumption or not. ;-)

"it’s just that you act more like a pompous and arrogant man than a lady."

...and others here have insisted just the opposite. This is why you shouldn't presume to be such an arbiter of fact.

"As for the bloody nose thing, I didn’t get one. I also wasn’t upset, and I certainly wasn’t dragging that conversation into this."

...which explains you dragging up a debate from another post, simply to gripe about it where it doesn't apply.

...which ALSO explains you revisiting it again a week later here, part of a series both here and elsewhere going all the way back to last December. Look, I get the fact you want a re-match but that's loser behavior. Winners don't need a re-match.

"I was simply using evidence to show why it is futile to discuss things with you."

Again, your standards of "evidence" are not absolute. As I've already shown, the claims you made here as "evidence" against me are false. If you keep raising them, it won't change that. All you're proving, once more, is what YOU choose to call "fact" or "evidence" is not a "fact" NOR "evidence" simply because you label them as such.

I don't really care if I get an apology from you or not. I'm certianly not going to ask for one if it means conceding to your erroneous reasoning.

I repeat: You're butthurt and this isn't the place for it. You don't see me referencing you all over the place just to re-hash the same points. :D

"and we could talk like civilized people with the other 80% of communication being visible."

We are having a civilized conversation. We're not insulting each other. You aren't "blocking" me and I don't block anyone. I don't need to for the same reason I don't need to drag a discussion around from one post to another.

Hoo boy..., ALL CAPS, LOADS O' BOLD, UPTIGHT UNDERLINING :All of Ave Crux's "heavy headline" attention grabbing tactics. :P As the media shows, trumpeting errors don't make them true.

Now then, we are discussing Abp. Lefebvre and his refusal to admit his errors. Like so: "Ave Crux said: "Rome refused to cooperate in the preservation of the virtually bi-millennial Traditions of Holy Mother Church after throwing them in the trash heap."

--in direct reference to Abp. Lefebvre's presumed efforts to this end. So what I said was corrct. Rome has no obligation to "cooperate" with a subordinate on whatever "cause" he choose to adopt.

Simply put, I'm not going to allow you to "bait and switch" between Abp. Lefebvre and your high-flown pseudo-religious rhetoric justifying his disobedience. Rome and The Church have no obligation to cooperate with Abp. Lefebvre. Abp. Lefebvre had an obligation to cooperate with Rome and The Church.

"It is you who keeps insisting that we conflate Archbishop Lefebvre and SSPX with the Church Herself each time we mention him. We don't...."

...contradicted every time you falsely misrepresent a schismatic group as still in communinon and thus part of the Catholic Church. They aren't.

That is my central objection to the SSPX and its "missionary evangelists". If they wish to leave The Church because they believe it's "false/ modern", fine. If they refuse to submit to the Pope for whatever reason, fine. If they want to prserve an older form of the Mass, fine. The Orthodox did all of these things over a thousand years ago. But they don't pretend to be Catholics. They don't try to lure Catholics into their schism selling them a false bill of "Catholic" tradition.

"It was not for Rome to cooperate with LeFebvre, but with their mandate to preserve our Patrimony -- as received!!"

That must be news to Saint Lefebvre who participated and signed off on Vatican Council II. No, his dedication ot "Patrimony" appeared when he needed to conjure up reasons why he defied the Pope and The Church after he didn't get what he wanted. Everything else from him, and his groupies, has always been one long series of excuses to that end.

"Archbishop Lefebvre was doing nothing more himself than his duty to the Church of the Ages"

His duty to The Church of the Ages was remain part of that Church and not fall into schism out of arrogance and defiance.

Further, it is not for him to decide how to best do his "duty" in serving The Church. That's the job of superiors and as Paul VI shows, he'd been setting himself up as a de facto "anti-Pope" for decades before his formal break with The Church.

"INSTEAD, ROME "COOPERATED" AMONG THEMSELVES IN THE DESTRUCTION AND SUPPRESSION OF OUR SACRED PATRIMONY...."

...and Saint Lefebvre was a part of that destruction and abided by it for a quarter of a century afterwards. Lefebvrists never bring that up until a critic does and then it's Excuse City.

"and is now being facilitated even more radically by Francis."

Irrelevant to Abp. Lefebvre's disobedience. He was long dead before Francis was elected.

"In fact, I was listening to one of John Paul II's lamentations just yesterday about the spreading "silent apostasy" in the Church."

That's nice, :) What a coincidence. Saint JP II was the very Pope who excommunicated Saint Lefebvre and formally denounced his movement as a schism.

"Archbishop Lefebvre fulfilled his mandate knowing he was about to die."

His mandate was not to disobey The Church or to lead Catholics out of it.

"to violate his conscience and "beg pardon" for errors that were no errors at all"

His errors include his presumption of authority he did not have.

The Church had every right, even a obligation to ensure 1.) his reconcilliation was sincere 2.) he acknowledged his errors in judgement 3.) and he would not continue misleading Catholics the way he was and his schismatic successors continue to do today, much to the serious peril of the sould of the misguided faithful.

People don't get "vindicated" or "canonized" for doing the wrong thing even if they believed they did it for the right reason.

"while they themselves are drowning in the errors they've unleashed upon the Church and refuse to correct."

The errors of Church leaders are not for Abp. Lefebvre to correct. They are for God to correct.

Venerable Saint Marcel always had a big problem confusing himself and The Almighty. His so-called "conscience" did little except joyfully hiss in his ear encouraging his pride and stubborness. His "conscience" goaded him to more disobedience, more defiance, more schism, not only for himself but for other Catholics... trusting Catholics, gullible Catholics, the kind easily led out of The Church and thus away from God.

Abp. Lefebvre's "conscience" has a lot to answer for..

Ultraviolet said: "It is not for Rome to cooperate with its subordinates"

Ave Crux said: "Rome refused to cooperate in the preservation of the virtually bi-millennial Traditions of Holy Mother Church after throwing them in the trash heap."

I.E. NOT WITH SUBORDINATES, BUT WITH THE VERY MANDATE AND MISSION OF HOLY MOTHER CHURCH TO KEEP THE TRUE FAITH WITHOUT ERROR, TO PRESERVE OUR SACRED PATRIMONY AND TO PASS IT ON AS IT WAS RECEIVED...

It is you who keeps insisting that we conflate Archbishop Lefebvre and SSPX with the Church Herself each time we mention him. We don't....

It was not for Rome to cooperate with LeFebvre, but with their mandate to preserve our Patrimony -- as received!!

Archbishop Lefebvre was doing nothing more himself than his duty to the Church of the Ages -- as the Pope and Bishops were also bound to do -- in fulfilling his mandate by preserving the Holy Catholic Faith just as he had received it.

THAT BLESSED FAITH, WHOLE, ENTIRE AND UNDEFILED; A MISSION LAID UPON EVERY BISHOP AND UPON EVERY POPE AS THOSE TASKED WITH PRESERVING IT, AND FOR WHICH EACH WILL GIVE A STERN ACCOUNT BEFORE GOD.

INSTEAD, ROME "COOPERATED" AMONG THEMSELVES IN THE DESTRUCTION AND SUPPRESSION OF OUR SACRED PATRIMONY, AND ARE MOVING AHEAD IN THAT "COOPERATION" WITH RENEWED HATRED OF TRADITION THIS VERY DAY.

Hence the "autodemolition" of the Church which followed Vatican II and was lamented by Pope Paul VI and John Paul II, and is now being facilitated even more radically by Francis.

In fact, I was listening to one of John Paul II's lamentations just yesterday about the spreading "silent apostasy" in the Church.

Archbishop Lefebvre fulfilled his mandate knowing he was about to die. And yet those who laid criminal hands upon the Church's sacred treasures wanted him to LIE -- to violate his conscience and "beg pardon" for errors that were no errors at all, while they themselves are drowning in the errors they've unleashed upon the Church and refuse to correct.

Archbishop Lefebvre stands vindicated by the entire history of all that has happened since Vatican II and will one day be canonized.

We have agreed, @Ave Crux. We agree that Abp. Lefebvre was excommunicated and died outside The Church. ;-)

He didn't give a toot about "the preservation of the Church's Patrimony" for over 25 years. No, he started fabricating those concerns after he didn't get permission to ordain his own bishops.

"When Rome refused to cooperate..."

It is not for Rome to cooperate with its subordinates. Schismatics always forget that.

"the virtually bi-millennial Traditions of Holy Mother Church after throwing them in the trash heap"

...which was signed by none other than Abp. Lefebvre who than sat by for No, he didn't act then. THEN he sat by for another quarter of a century. He acted only when Papa Johannes refused to back down and told Spoiled Little Marcel, "NO".

"He must humble himself before Modernists hacks no less..."

They're his superiors and he swore an oath of obedience to them. And two wrongs don't make a right, especially since most of those excesses happend long after he was dead.

"Well, I tell you....a couple of Modernist priests have tried that "humbling" stuff with me..."

...and I'm sure it didn't work. They were Catholics, you are not. The SSPX is not in communion with The Church. You can thumb your nose at a Catholic Modernist priest just as a Greek Orthodox can.

"You can be sure I didn't become their obedient dolt."

You don't have to, either. You're laity, not clergy. You haven't sworn an oath of obedience to The Church.

"just as the venerable Archbishop Lefebvre resisted..."

LOL... I see the SSPX is already fabricating their own saints. Tell me, which Catholic bishop declared Abp. Lefebvre a "Servant of God" and which Pope granted him this title? I'll wait...

"Do you know who said the Church was in a process of "autodemolition"?....Paul VI! So Archbishop Lefebvre had it on good authority!"

The same Paul VI who denounced Abp. Lefebvre to his face with these words: "Unfortunately, the position you have taken is that of an antipope. What can I say? You have not allowed for any measure in your words, your actions, your behavior."

"Oh, and he was supposed to ignore the compelling voice of his conscience as a Bishop"

...the same conscience possessed by all self-serving men. It told him exactly what he wanted to hear.

"to do what a Bishop must: ensure the preservation of the Faith for the next generation?"

The Catholic faith clearly has been preserved in spite of Abp. Lefebvre and his schism.

As I said, he simply didn't have enough faith in God to do it. Nope. God needed Marcel Lefebvre's help. Couldn't do it without him!

".you began your earlier comment with an absolute falsehood about Lefebvre not agreeing to Rome's choice and even accepting only a single Bishop for all his seminarians"

That is a falsehood. I said no such thing. I said (quote) "Archbishop Lefebvre only acted after..." He didn't get what he wanted. Everything else is an excuse to justify that."

And everything you're writing here is further examples of the latter.

It's easy to tout one's conscience, but it's a poor substitute for obedience and an even worse stand-in for true faith in God Will.

"He will one day be canonized, and he's already vindicated."

I'm sure the Lutherans say the same.

Oh that's rich, Ultraviolet....we finally agree on something!!

Archbishop Lefebvre only acted after....."He didn't get what he wanted."

Yes, exactly! And that would be CATHOLICISM and the preservation of the Church's Patrimony!!! You finally get it....!!

When Rome refused to cooperate in the preservation of the virtually bi-millennial Traditions of Holy Mother Church after throwing them in the trash heap, that's when Lefebvre acted.

And oh, this is marvelous...:"Rome wanted Lefebvre to humble himself as a sign of submission"...!

He must humble himself before Modernists hacks no less -- Modernists who pray with pagans, empty seminaries of vocations and doctrine, allow virtually universal sacrilege of the Blessed Sacrament!

Of course....!! He should humble himself before these criminals....! What virtue that would have proven!

Well, I tell you....a couple of Modernist priests have tried that "humbling" stuff with me -- rebuking me for receiving on the tongue, for being a Traditionalist, etc. and that didn't go too well, either. You can be sure I didn't become their obedient dolt.

I certainly did not and will not humble myself before them....just as the venerable Archbishop Lefebvre resisted the Modernist hacks who were well underway with the "autodemolition of the Church".

Do you know who said the Church was in a process of "autodemolition"?....Paul VI!

So Archbishop Lefebvre had it on good authority!

Oh, and he was supposed to ignore the compelling voice of his conscience as a Bishop -- to which he attested countless times -- and conform himself to the very process of "autodemolition" decried by the very Pope who helped set it loose on the Church?...without resisting...going to his death after failing to do what a Bishop must: ensure the preservation of the Faith for the next generation?

Let's at least be rational and coherent, Ultraviolet.....you began your earlier comment with an absolute falsehood about Lefebvre not agreeing to Rome's choice and even accepting only a single Bishop for all his seminarians....even signing an agreement to that effect. At least now let the truth be told.

Archbishop Lefebvre finally felt compelled -- as his death approached, and it was absolutely clear they were waiting for his death without doing one single thing for Tradition -- to act as he was bound in conscience as a Bishop before God: to ensure the preservation of the Catholic Patrimony which he had received and which he was charged to pass on to the Faithful.

He will one day be canonized, and he's already vindicated.

Trust SSPX spin-control... "Archbishop Lefebvre only acted after..." He didn't get what he wanted. Everything else is an excuse to justify that.

1.) Rome wanted Abp. Lefebvre to humble himself as a sign of submission to his superious and his arrogant pride wouldn't allow it.

2.) When they asked him to humble himself is irrelevant to the fact he refused to do so and then disobeyed The Pope in full knowledge of Canon Law after repeated warnings and admonitions that he was breaking the law and what it meant.

3) Abp. Lefebvre abided by "the tidal wave of errors and sacrilege which followed the "reforms" of Vatican II" for over 25 years. So it clearly didn't affect him the way he pretended after he didn't get what he wanted.

4) Even if Rome knew Lefebvre was dying, his disobedience shows his faith failed him. He didn't trust God enough to preserve the SSPX without his own disobedience against The Church.

5.) Since no one here is a mind-reader, nobody knows "what became clear in his conscience" except Abp. Lefebvre and God. Anyone can self-servingly cite their conscience when breaking the law. That doesn't doesn't change that it IS a crime..

IN SUM: yeah, it had everything to do with Abp. Lefebvre not gettng his choice of bishop. Worse, as Ave Crux has shown, it also had to do with Abp. Lefebvre's arrogance, his pride, and his lack of faith in God. You see... God could not preserve the SSPX through His own, if that was His will. He needed Abp. Lefebvre's help, even when that meant disobeying God's Church.

HISTORY CHECK:

Just to set the record straight for Gloria.TV readers (who probably already know the facts).

Archbishop Lefebvre had already accepted that Rome would not consecrate his own choice of Bishops and signed an agreement of regularization with Rome to that effect, and was awaiting a Bishop to be assigned Pope John Paul II.

Archbishop Lefebvre only acted after:

1) he was asked -- after agreeing to Rome's terms for regularization and signing the agreement -- to "beg pardon for his errors" (Really, his errors....? What completely perfidious, demonic irony!)

2) and this condition of begging pardon for his alleged "errors" was placed on him after the entire universal Church had witnessed the abomination of desolation which took place in Assisi, an event (along with the abandon of solid doctrine and catechesis in seminaries and parishes everywhere following Vatican II) which Lefebvre felt was a clear indication and tipping point in the trajectory for many members of the Church's hierarchy toward apostasy;.

3) and given the clear refusal on the part of Rome to even address the tidal wave of errors and sacrilege which followed the "reforms" of Vatican II, this demand that Lefebvre beg pardon for his alleged "errors" proved that mutual trust and good faith in Rome's willingness to preserve Tradition were no longer possible.

4) Thus, it was also clear by then that Rome knew he was dying and that they continued for months to delay repeatedly to give him even one Bishop for his seminarians preparing for the Priesthood before his death, making it certain these seminaries would be shut down and the "experiment" of Tradition brought to an end.

In view of these developments -- after having first agreed to all their terms and signing such an agreement -- Lefebvre did what became clear in his conscience was his duty as a Bishop before God to accomplish before his death, clearly aware of the treachery of those in Rome with whom he had been dealing in good faith...

That is, ensure beyond all doubt and all the wiles of God's enemies, the preservation of the Catholic Faith whole and entire, along with the Immemorial Mass and Sacraments, all of which had been illicitly suppressed after Vatican II (as Pope Benedict XVI later made clear in Summorum Pontificum)

IN SUM: It had nothing to do with Rome not accepting Lefebvre's choice of Bishops.

Excellent post....! The quotes from RFK, Jr. couldn't be more compelling....and true!

The solution for us is to live intense prayer lives in total oblation and unconditional offering to God and the Blessed Virgin. When we are fully surrendered into God's All-Powerful hands in blind confidence, we can be certain He will speak to our hearts and let each of us know in our particular circumstances *when* we must act and *which* hill He may ask us to die on.

For parents, it's especially compelling right at this moment. Children are being indoctrinated, their souls polluted with immoral gender ideology, their minds -- entrusted to their parents by God -- are being co-opted by raving Liberals in the schools with their radical propaganda.

Parents have clear imperatives at this moment to protect their children before the Left turns their children against them and convinces the children their parents are fools.

Mary, Help of Christians! Pray for us! Our Lady of Good Success, come to our aid in these apocalyptic times which Thou didst foretell with frightful detail and accuracy at Quito Ecuador over 400 years ago.