@Gesù è con noi The Church disagrees with you on the status of Pope Francis. He is not my idol. I do not even like Pope Francis, as I have explained many, many times before.

But this is not the first time you would rather lie than accurately describe to what I say. So, instead you follow me around the comments section like a beaten dog, whining and trying to re-start arguments you have already lost.

That's the mark of every person who loses a fight. They are the ones who want a "re-match" because they know they lost. :D

"when we show him that Bergoglio is not a pope"...
I wish you could. Best of all, I wish you could show the Curia this. But you can't. Benedict XVI's resignation was carefully overseen by experienced Canon lawyers with a far greater understanding of the Church than any you flatter yourself in possessing.

Your bitterness hurts no one except yourself. I will admit, it provides some amusement for me. Go lick your wounds somewhere else..

@la verdad prevalece No. I don't even hate anyone, not even you. I find your anger and Gesu's contemptible because it is the anger of people who have lost and they know it.

All you can do is scream "heretic" and "apostate" and whatever other stupidity you choose. What you can not do is reason intelligently and prove your position convincingly. You have proven that enough times.

Simply put, I do not hate you because you are not intelligent to do anythng worth hating.

The lies you tell about me blacken your soul, not mine. :D

@la verdad prevalece , so you denying the existence of Francis' legitimate papacy makes you -what- exactly? ;-)

@Gesù è con noi , so why have you lost yours? :D

I can see it's time for you both to learn the dangers of fencing with me. It's like losing to me in a debate, except I'm not as gentle.

Again @la verdad prevalece you fail to understand written English and insist on showing your ignorance as stridently as possible.

I support the office of the Pope and the Papacy as all loyal Catholics must. That said, Francis is a bad Pope. Possibly the worst ever. But he is still Pope. So, no, I do not support "Bergoglio" the way you ignorantly claim. If pushing a PayPal button in a shill-post could truly canonically remove Pope Francis, I would have done so long ago.

Go learn English before you spew another stupidity about what I do or do not "support'.

Ultraviolet, if you honestly hold that you would have pressed a donate button a long while ago to remove Bergoglio, then you should admit at least that maybe now is the time to do something. And yes canon 212 does allow the laity to petition their superiors to take canonical action. And yes that does take money, to bring experts on law and persuasive persons to meet all those who have authority to act and decide. As Catholics we are not Cartesians which believe all action must take place in the brain.

BrAlexisBugnolo
Apologies in advance for the length of this reply. If anything, it shows you've said something worth discussing this thoroughly.

First, I should probably clarify something. No matter what bitter Latin Americans like Gesù è con noi and la verdad prevalece like to claim, I'm appalled by Pope Francis, his ideology, his "reforms". That said, he still remains Pope. He may be a bad Pope, there have been many before him, but he's still Pope. The "Latinos" behave much like their cultural "muchacho" Francis. They don't like Francis so therefore he isn't a valid pope. Using their reasoning, Judas wasn't a valid apostle.

Second, I believe Pope Francis will remove himself. By that I mean he will fall into a common mistake common to many leftist radicals when, paradoxically, they are achieving their goals. They rush, try to accomplish too much too soon, and there is a backlash. Quick example, during the 2004 US Presidential election, John Kerry was open in his support of homosexuality and that cost him substantial votes, particularly in the predomominantly Baptist, solidly Democrat South. Ultimately it cost him the entire election.

Or, even more likely, Francis will be removed because he's fiscally irresponsible. For many, the Church is a business. Right now they have a CEO who is very, very bad for business. There is a limit to how much mismanagement they will tolerate. We can hope this happens sooner rather than later.

Third, when it comes to "taking action" i.e. donating money, that's a different matter. I don't know anything about your organization or the breakdown of its salaries/ expenses. No offense, but there are many, many groups on every side of any spiritual and temporal political issue promising people exactly what they want to hear. They tend to be overseen by people who award themselves lavish, generous salaries to manage and oversee the group's activities. I'm not saying your group is run like that, but it is a valid concern. The Church has been plagued with scammers going back to the Middle Ages with false "pardoners", sellers of bogus relics, and the miraculously "cured".

Fourth, as I've told Gesu and La Verdad, the temporal Church is a political entity and Francis has packed it with his supporters. Canon lawyers (like any other sort of lawyers) can craft any number of interpretations of canon law, both pro and con. Those mysterious "persuasive persons" you allude to can (we hope) gain audience with the decision makers within The Church and present those interpretations. But the Church is not an American judicial system, it is still essentially a Medieval one. There is no jury. The validity of any legal interpretation is determined entirely by the "judge". In this case, the "judges" answer only to themselves and to their benefactor: Francis.

The laity isn't going to "force" Francis out of office. Your canon lawyers will be happy to take your money and we can hope, present better legal arguments than the drivel Gesu offers here as irrefutable proof. Your persuasive persons will be happy to take your money and promise they'll talk with/ meet with this functionary or that one. Francis himself has met in the past with various critics, over the state of the Chinese Church. He nods, mumbles, utters a few of his famously vague and ambiguous aphorisms.. End of meeting, end of discussion, end of reforms.

No suprises there. Marxists fight to the bitter end to retain power. They would rather destroy a structure before they ever willingly leave it. Ousting Francis will not be a matter of a few of his advisors sitting down with him over a nice lobster dinner one Friday evening and saying, "Jorge, amigo, it's time to consider retierment." If Francis retires, and he might, but it will be on his terms so he can ensure an even more radical successor.

Francis, like any Marxist worthy of the term, understands the requirements necessary to retain power. He has the backing of his cronies and that's all he needs. Simply put, he doesn't care what dissenters, particularly lay-dissenters think or how much they contest the validity of his regime. If he has to, he can simply expel any clerical critic who gains too much support. "Ego Sum Papa" and that is that.

It will take a gross misstep on Francis' part (doctrinally or financially) for his supporters to flee en mass. It could happen, but it will happen entirely through Francis' own blunders and, of course, the Grace of God.

You might want to give this article a quick glance for some perspective. Hopefully it will clarify the source of my admittedly gloomy outlook.. ;-).

onepeterfive.com/deposing-popes-…

@la verdad prevalece
"According to you Bergoglio is above the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and above God."

According to me??? Do you have a direct quote where I ever claimed such things? No, you do not. So, no, it not "according to me". That is you putting words in my mouth.

"According to you, an apostate who sins against the Catholic faith can become a pope"

According to Church history such men were popes, many times. I am not Church history. If you wish to argue that history is false, then you must prove it. You will have to show every "bad pope" in history was, in truth, a good and holy man. I asked Gesu to do this and he could not.

Strange how I am wasting your time when I prove you wrong. Maybe I should whine how you waste my time with your ignorance and false claims.