Werte shares this
"flying bishops" who became Catholis

Since ‘92: Graham Leonard (London) Conrad Meyer John Klyberg (Fulham) Richard Rutt (Leicester) John Broadhurst (Fulham) Edwin Barnes (Richborough) Keith Newton (Richborough) Andrew Burnham (Ebbsfleet) David Silk Paul Richardson John Goddard (Burnley) Jonathan Goodall (Ebbsfleet)
cmoulthrop
The TLM is not the extraordinary form, it is the only form of a Catholic Mass. Abrogated by Pius V, anyone who changed it is anathema.
Ultraviolet
Theology-Check: 1.) There is only one Catholic Church. 2.) It does not belong to Pope Francis, even if he is the current temporal head of it. 3.) Converts to The Church are Catholics and no longer protestants. 4.) @Defeat Modernism doesn't know what they're talking about. It's debatable whether they themselves are even still Catholic anymore. What they're suggesting sounds like they'…More
Theology-Check: 1.) There is only one Catholic Church. 2.) It does not belong to Pope Francis, even if he is the current temporal head of it. 3.) Converts to The Church are Catholics and no longer protestants. 4.) @Defeat Modernism doesn't know what they're talking about. It's debatable whether they themselves are even still Catholic anymore. What they're suggesting sounds like they've fallen into outriight schism. Either way, Catholic or not, they're stupid and have no business criticiizing genuine Catholics who are now part of The Church. Least of all on the basis of nothing more than their own asinine say-so.

...and this, you stinking two-faced hypocrite, is a comment you can't "cancel-culture" out the way you do on "your" posts. You're just going to have to choke on it because you don't have a shred of theology to back your BS.
The New Knights Templar
@Defeat Modernism It is people like you and statements like this that are killing the extraordinary form of the Mass. Francis just took statements like this and used them against you. Check out what he said in his latest interview.
Defeat Modernism
I don't care what Francis says. He is a modernist heretic, an enemy of Christ and The Church. There is only ONE RITE of the Church and that is the Latin Mass. The novus ordo is a protestant, heretical supper. It was condemned by Session 7 Canon 13 of the dogmatic Council of Trent and by Pope St. Pius V in Quo Primum. Please learn the Faith because your eternal salvation depends upon it.
The New Knights Templar
How do you explain all of the Eucharistic miracles which have occurred in the N.O.? You have to be SSPX. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Francis fan, I don't agree with the changes made in "the spirit of Vat II". I'd love to go to TLM but there isn't one anywhere close. But the N.O Mass is valid whether you like it or not. You're not religiously superior to others.
Caroline03
@The New Knights Templar
"How do you explain all of the Eucharistic miracles which have occurred in the N.O.?"

Apparently, it is not " Holy Mass" that Consecrates the Host into being the Body and Precious Blood of Jesus. It is the words of Consecration that accomplishes the miraculous feat. Therefore, a sacrilige such as "Consecrating the Eucharist outside of Mass" can occur when what is …More
@The New Knights Templar
"How do you explain all of the Eucharistic miracles which have occurred in the N.O.?"

Apparently, it is not " Holy Mass" that Consecrates the Host into being the Body and Precious Blood of Jesus. It is the words of Consecration that accomplishes the miraculous feat. Therefore, a sacrilige such as "Consecrating the Eucharist outside of Mass" can occur when what is Canonically defined as "Mass" (stated by Trent) has been replaced by an another (unauthorised) Liturgy and the VALID words of Consecration are used within it.

The actual words which Consecrate the Host (when a Validly ordained Priest utters them) can in fact be used to effect an valid Consecration for nefarious purposes if a validly ordained but EVIL Priest offered his services to the Satanic Temple, unfortunately.

Therefore, even were the Sacred words of Consecration uttered under the most appalling circumstances OUTSIDE of what is commonly referred to as "The Mass of Trent" Consecration of the Eucharistic WILL ALWAYS happen.

Trent and "Quo Primum" tell us what is eternally defined as "Mass" (The Tridentine Liturgy) and other documents profess what the valid words of Consecration are. The two elements can become seperated. ie A false, Canonically illicit NEW Mass celebrated wherein the valid words of Consecration are used.

Fr Gregorio Hesse (RIP) - A Canon Lawyer, trained at Rome stated that as long as the valid words of Consecration have been used, Consecration can occur. However, he stated that should the illicit New Mass use none-Canonicalwords of Consecration, ie using the words "For ALL" rather than the words "For MANY" Consecration will not occur, since Jesus did not say "For ALL" He said "For Many."

I think you will find, that the Eucharistic Miracles are only known to have occured in those areas of the world, where the words "For Many" were adhered to even though most English speaking Missals had altered them to "For All"

Spain STILL persists to this day in using the none Canonically valid words of "For all" in their Missals, but I discovered that Latin America which has had a Eucharistic Miracle or two, in the vast majority of cases used the words "For many" When I lived in Spain they had in their Missal Translation (like England and the USA) the incorrect words of Consecration "For ALL" Yet, A visiting Latin American Priest stunned the SPANISH Parishioners by using the words "For Many" during his Spanish NO Mass. After visiting him in the Sacristy after the event, he revealed to me that he was not Spanish, but South American, and that was why HIS mass was using different words to that of the Missal used in Spain.

POLAND, have had a Eucharistic Miracle in the NO Rite and their Missal never used the words "For all" Some countries abided with adhering to the words of Consecration that had been used within the Tridentine Rite, and that includes France. Both those Nations never were guilty of altering the words of Consecration to say "For all" France (I can attest) uses the words "pour la Multitude" in their translation of the NO Rite. Even though the English Language Missals and some other Nations throughout the world had completely changed and (according to Fr Hesse) invalidated the actual act of Consecration by using the words "For all"

Because he was made aware that the incorrect words of Consecration had invalidated Masses in many Nations, Pope Benedict called for them to be altered back which is why the English Language NO Missal had to be changed during his Pontificate.

The NO Liturgy (According to Fr Hesse) is a schismatic Liturgy which is valid IF it uses the VALID words of Consecration but NOT when Christ is said to have said "For ALL" which is Canonically erroneous. He said the usage of those words during the Consecration invalidates any NO Liturgy.

Prior to the Pontificate of Pope Benedict, many of the foreign language NO Missals HAD NOT CHANGED THE WORDS OF CONSECRATION to invalidate them and they still resembled those defined by the Church as effecting the Consecration - albeit illicitly and sacrilegiously as the Consecration was being effected OUTSIDE of the boundaries of what the Church has already defined as being "Mass" - the Rite of Trent.

Father Hesse explains it better than I can 😊 He discusses the ins and outs of Canon Law and what invalidates the Mass at this link. - Be aware though at the time that this video was made, the English Language NO Missals were using the words "For all"

By the way, download this as many of Fr Hesse's videos have been removed recently from YOUTUBE.

youtube.com/watch?v=sKtO1Vq9lFA
Defeat Modernism
The so call Eucharistic Miracles are frauds of the Devil to keep you poor souls in the counterfeit Church. The devil can work false miracles. He has done so through false mystics, through the priests of Pharaoh, etc. The ordination rites, the changes to the new 'mass,' the new bishop consecration rites are all invalid as they have departed from the 'received and approved rites' that were made a …More
The so call Eucharistic Miracles are frauds of the Devil to keep you poor souls in the counterfeit Church. The devil can work false miracles. He has done so through false mystics, through the priests of Pharaoh, etc. The ordination rites, the changes to the new 'mass,' the new bishop consecration rites are all invalid as they have departed from the 'received and approved rites' that were made a dogma at the Council of Trent. And even if they were valid they would be illicit, not allowed and you objectively commit a sacrilege whenever you attend such evil rites. I am SSPV, I reject these heretical and apostate Anti-popes who do not even believe in the Catholic Faith so how can they head the Church. They are Vicars of Anti-Christ and you people better wake up fast and actually learn the Faith as it was taught prior to the 1960s because you have been led out of the Catholic Church and straight into the "One World Church of Apostasy" as was predicted by Pope St. Pius X in his letter Notre Charge Apostolique.
Defeat Modernism
There have been Eucharistic Miracles in the past during the Latin Mass when priests doubted the real presence but we should not be searching for miracles or needing them. People go all over looking for visionaries, prophetic messages from frauds (Medjugorje, Maria Divine Mercy, etc.). People need to spend their time in prayer, penance and learning the Faith. Following a million false messages …More
There have been Eucharistic Miracles in the past during the Latin Mass when priests doubted the real presence but we should not be searching for miracles or needing them. People go all over looking for visionaries, prophetic messages from frauds (Medjugorje, Maria Divine Mercy, etc.). People need to spend their time in prayer, penance and learning the Faith. Following a million false messages and chasing after so called miracles will not save you. Living the Faith and dying in a state of grace will.
The New Knights Templar
@Caroline03 Thanks for being decent with your reply. "Apparently it is not a Holy Mass." Apparently that's your opinion, as is most of everything else you say. As far as Fr. Hesse, I've watched his videos and if you notice, he had a glass of wine which he refilled at least 3 times in about every single video. Father Hesse was an alleged alcoholic, do the research. Does that make what he said …More
@Caroline03 Thanks for being decent with your reply. "Apparently it is not a Holy Mass." Apparently that's your opinion, as is most of everything else you say. As far as Fr. Hesse, I've watched his videos and if you notice, he had a glass of wine which he refilled at least 3 times in about every single video. Father Hesse was an alleged alcoholic, do the research. Does that make what he said wrong, I don't know, I'm not a canon lawyer, but at least I admit to it. Cardinal Burke is a Canon lawyer and he accepts the NO Mass as valid. He would flip the altar around, have it said Ad Orientem, but he has not condemned the NO Mass. Bishop Schneider has stated the NO Mass is valid and even says it from time to time. Read his book ""Christus Vincit", it is in there. Even Archbishop Vigano has claimed that the NO Mass is valid. The problem is the priests who say the Mass, not the Mass itself. The NO can be said very reverently but we have so many bad priests and bishops, no one is willing to stop the outrages being done, So if you don't like it, try to remember that no one is forcing you to go to it. Also keep in mind what I said, I don't have TLM anywhere close to me, so I HAVE to go to the NO until one comes closer, if God doesn't destroy the world first.

"As far as Quo Primum is concerned it was a disciplinary matter in the Church, not an infallible teaching on faith or morals. Evidence of this is that an infallible teaching on faith or morals would not—indeed could not—allow for such exceptions as “unless approval of the practice of saying Mass differently was given” or “unless there has prevailed a custom of a similar kind” In fact, the document states, “We in no wise rescind their above-mentioned prerogative or custom.”

Such matters of Church discipline always remain subject to future change by equal or greater authority. In light of this, wording such as “in perpetuity” must be understood as “from now on, until this or another equal or greater authority determines otherwise.” Pope Paul VI held equal authority to that of Pope St. Pius V. Therefore, changes to the Mass under his authority were licit and valid."

"catholic.com/…andate-in-quo-primum-requiring-the-tridentine-mass"

@Defeat Modernism "There have been Eucharistic Miracles in the past during the Latin Mass when priests doubted the real presence but we should not be searching for miracles or needing them." I never made the claim anyone was searching for or needing miracles, in essence, I said miracles have occurred. If you choose to believe they're from the devil, I can't change your thinking, have at it, but how do you know this, have you investigated them? The exact same thing could be said about any miracles you have claimed occurred during the Latin Mass. Also, if you would untie your underwear, relax, and READ MY INITIAL COMMENT, you would find that I support the Latin Mass and would go to it if one was closer to me, but there is not. All I said that got everyone bent out of shape was that the NO was valid, Cardinal Burke has claimed this, Bishop Schneider has claimed this, Archbishop Vigano has claimed this. So if you have a problems with that, talk to them. No one is forcing you to go to a NO, if you don't like the Mass, don't go, but please stop pulling claims out of your butt that the Devil is causing the miracles, you sound like a 4 year old.
The New Knights Templar
@Truth Of Jesus Christ. Where did I say TLM was wrong? I didn't, I support it, I just don't have one close to me. As far as the NO being valid, don't go if you don't believe it is, but Cardinal Burke has claimed valid, Bishop Schneider has claimed this, Archbishop Vigano has claimed this. I choose to believe them over you.
Defeat Modernism
They are all faithless modernists who agree with the Novus Ordo and the Modernist heresy that was already condemned by Vatican I and Pope St. Pius X. All the changes made by the Judas Paul VI were condemned by Session 7 Canon 13 of the Council of Trent. It is invalid, it is a mockery of the True Mass of the Catholic Church. You are attending a Protestant Rite created by heretics for heretics. …More
They are all faithless modernists who agree with the Novus Ordo and the Modernist heresy that was already condemned by Vatican I and Pope St. Pius X. All the changes made by the Judas Paul VI were condemned by Session 7 Canon 13 of the Council of Trent. It is invalid, it is a mockery of the True Mass of the Catholic Church. You are attending a Protestant Rite created by heretics for heretics. Here is the Council of Trent condemning forever any NEW Rites:

CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.

Show me were the Church teaches the 'received and approved rites' can be changed!?

thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm
The New Knights Templar
"As far as Quo Primum is concerned it was a disciplinary matter in the Church, not an infallible teaching on faith or morals. Evidence of this is that an infallible teaching on faith or morals would not—indeed could not—allow for such exceptions as “unless approval of the practice of saying Mass differently was given” or “unless there has prevailed a custom of a similar kind” In fact, the …More
"As far as Quo Primum is concerned it was a disciplinary matter in the Church, not an infallible teaching on faith or morals. Evidence of this is that an infallible teaching on faith or morals would not—indeed could not—allow for such exceptions as “unless approval of the practice of saying Mass differently was given” or “unless there has prevailed a custom of a similar kind” In fact, the document states, “We in no wise rescind their above-mentioned prerogative or custom.”

Such matters of Church discipline always remain subject to future change by equal or greater authority. In light of this, wording such as “in perpetuity” must be understood as “from now on, until this or another equal or greater authority determines otherwise.” Pope Paul VI held equal authority to that of Pope St. Pius V. Therefore, changes to the Mass under his authority were licit and valid."

"catholic.com/…andate-in-quo-primum-requiring-the-tridentine-mass"
Dr Bobus
The words of consecration designate the matter. Such designation is not relevant to whether for all or for many is used.

For all is obviously an erroneous translation of pro multis. I do not, however, consider for many to be accurate. .

The use of pro multis is not meant to indicate everyone--nor to indicate limitation. Pro vobis et pro multis: For you (present) and for the multitude (…More
The words of consecration designate the matter. Such designation is not relevant to whether for all or for many is used.

For all is obviously an erroneous translation of pro multis. I do not, however, consider for many to be accurate. .

The use of pro multis is not meant to indicate everyone--nor to indicate limitation. Pro vobis et pro multis: For you (present) and for the multitude (not present).
philosopher
@The New Knights Paul VI did not reform the mass, the way previous popes did by adding or subtracting a prayer, or rearranging them. Paul VI created a totally new mass outside of and apart from the Gregorian Mass i.e. TLM. I agree that it's valid, but that's like saying my marriage is valid- not a statement of the overall state or condition of marriage. Validity is only one qualification of …More
@The New Knights Paul VI did not reform the mass, the way previous popes did by adding or subtracting a prayer, or rearranging them. Paul VI created a totally new mass outside of and apart from the Gregorian Mass i.e. TLM. I agree that it's valid, but that's like saying my marriage is valid- not a statement of the overall state or condition of marriage. Validity is only one qualification of its expression and it certainly takes on a Protestant flavor in many other qualitative and phenomenological aspects. Moreover, while it can celebrated within a traditional form, the rubrics according to GRIM do not require it and allow for a flexibility, that is prone to liturgical abuse, which we see ad nauseum through out the world in the Church.
The New Knights Templar
@philosopher I fully agree with you. I was a little dude, but I was an altar server during the time of the Latin Mass. I can barely remember it, but I watched them tear down the beautiful high altars and put up the horrible looking backdrops that we stare at these days. I'm totally against the "coliseum" Churches, the altars surrounded by pews. I abhor the idea of them moving the tabernacle and …More
@philosopher I fully agree with you. I was a little dude, but I was an altar server during the time of the Latin Mass. I can barely remember it, but I watched them tear down the beautiful high altars and put up the horrible looking backdrops that we stare at these days. I'm totally against the "coliseum" Churches, the altars surrounded by pews. I abhor the idea of them moving the tabernacle and sticking it into a room off to the side somewhere. It's all about taking the focus off of God and placing in on mankind. I don't agree with priests facing the people, female altar servers, etc. The main purpose for my original comment was more or less to point out the excuse that Francis used in his latest interview to go after TLM. I probably wasn't as clear as I could have been.

Good point about validity as well, however to the best of my understanding, the NO is both valid and licit (at least so far). That is all I was trying to say. I'm with you 100% on the liturgical abuses as well, not to mention complete lack of reverence by most in the NO. I kneel and receive on the tongue or I don't receive, that should give you an idea of my view on things. I live in the Midwest and the abuses aren't as horrifying as they are elsewhere, yet, but it is getting here. This is why I've been trying to point out to the others that I'd be going to TLM if I could, I just can't. I don't have the knowledge to get into specifics with Canon Law, etc., and my knowledge of Church history lacks as well, I was brought up in a collapsing Church, so I do my best to learn what I can on my own.

I'm not in favor of the attitude that rolls off of some of these individuals towards other Catholics, like @Defeat Modernism, most of us here have the same goal in mind. Attending the NO doesn't mean I'm a leper and I find it uncalled for. Thanks for the good comment, my friend!
Defeat Modernism
The Mass is not mere discipline. It is THE prayer of the Church. It is the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary. It is not something to be toyed with. The Pope swear an oath to uphold the 'received and approved rites.' Paul VI went against this oath and put himself outside the Church and so too do all those who take part in this schismatic, heretical and blasphemous protestant Lord's supper. NO WHERE will …More
The Mass is not mere discipline. It is THE prayer of the Church. It is the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary. It is not something to be toyed with. The Pope swear an oath to uphold the 'received and approved rites.' Paul VI went against this oath and put himself outside the Church and so too do all those who take part in this schismatic, heretical and blasphemous protestant Lord's supper. NO WHERE will you find the Church calling the Mass a disciplinary sacrament. Show me where in the entire history of the Church prior to the 1960s that this was ever the case. Pope St. Pius V in Quo Primum forbid any new rites that were less than 200 years old and he stated he restored the mass to its original form. He then strictly forbid anyone make any changes to his Missal threatening the wrath of Almight God and the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul upon them. We can see the fruits of the new mass are diabolic. Look at how many people left the Church, lost their Faith! Look at how many homos, pedos, commies and liberals infect and illegally occupy the Churches and buildings that rightfully belong to Catholics! I am a Catholic you are a Novus Ordo Liberal. We don't share the same Faith.
The New Knights Templar
LOL! You sure are holy, if anyone doubts this, all they need to do is to ask you, you'll tell them, right!! LOL

"Look at how many people left the Church..."

You left the Church too, you idiot! Who's your current pope?

"Look at how many homos, pedos, commies and liberals infect and illegally occupy the Churches and buildings that rightfully belong to Catholics!"

Wow, come on, you know better …More
LOL! You sure are holy, if anyone doubts this, all they need to do is to ask you, you'll tell them, right!! LOL

"Look at how many people left the Church..."

You left the Church too, you idiot! Who's your current pope?

"Look at how many homos, pedos, commies and liberals infect and illegally occupy the Churches and buildings that rightfully belong to Catholics!"

Wow, come on, you know better than that. Sexual perversion isn't a Novus Ordo thing, it's a human thing. It pervades every institution globally, including your country and its institutions.

"We don't share the same Faith."

You're correct, I'm not in schism.
philosopher
@new Knights Templar I agree, I think it's important to keep in mind that traditional Catholics are in communion with all orthodox faithful, and many of them do not have access to a TLM but only have the N.O. available.

Pax et bonum
Dr Bobus
It is not true that there is only one rite in the Church. There are Uniate Catholic Churches that use one of the five Eastern Rites. Uniate existence even predates Quo Primum.

I have known Latin Rite Catholics who have become Unites because of the sad liturgical situation of the last 50* years,
Defeat Modernism
Sadly, if he 'converted' to Francis' Novus Ordo he is still a protestant and not part of the Catholic Church.