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Liberal Rigorism: PiusX Not Part Of The Church - Cardinal Burke

The Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) is “at the present moment not part of the One Roman Catholic Church,” Cardinal Raymond Burke told Matt Fradd on YouTube.com (May 8, video quote below).

Burke hopes that, in time, there will be a reconciliation with the Francis Church but he didn't elaborate whether such a reconciliation could be based on a "common Faith." However, Burke insisted that the position of PiusX is "schismatic."

The Cardinal is aware that PiusX accepts the Pope but not “his governance of the Church with regard to themselves.” At least, he acknowledges that PiusX has accomplished a great good concerning the teaching of the Faith and the education of young people.

In terms of a rigorous application of canon law that the Francis Church reserves only for Catholics in order to persecute and harass them, Burke is right.

#newsGrreejeevr

Ave Crux
I have only one question:

Since Pope Francis gave SSPX faculties to hear confessions of real, live, actual Roman Catholics anywhere in the world, and to preside at Catholic Nuptial Masses for members of their Chapels....and he DID NOT at the same time prohibit them from using the very faculties he gave them for this purpose so that they could exercise these faculties among the Catholic Faithfu…More
I have only one question:

Since Pope Francis gave SSPX faculties to hear confessions of real, live, actual Roman Catholics anywhere in the world, and to preside at Catholic Nuptial Masses for members of their Chapels....and he DID NOT at the same time prohibit them from using the very faculties he gave them for this purpose so that they could exercise these faculties among the Catholic Faithful -- thus removing a major obstacle from their apostolate -- WHAT PRECISE GOVERNANCE OF THE POPE OVER THEM HAVE THEY REJECTED?

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church is overrun by apostates, sacrilege and blasphemy with worshiping of Pachamama in procession at the heart of the Church, Germany proceeds unimpeded into manifest schism without intervention, and such men feel a need to beat on SSPX, who are simply doing what the Church did for hundreds of years, and saving many souls from spiritual shipwreck on the shoals of Modernism in their local insane asylums...pardon, local parishes.

Jousting with windmills....

My family and I received the soul-saving ministrations of the SSPX for decades following Vatican II when we had nothing and no one else except the electric guitar Masses down the street.

Archbishop Lefebvre will one day be vindicated and canonized for preserving and passing on the Faith just as he had received it, without alteration or stain or compromise from the fetid, toxic springs of Modernism.
edison frisbee
Burke is a coward.....why does anyone bother to give him the time of day anymore?
pgmgn
...Burke is given the time of day by those who like to point fingers at those who DO instead of sit around grousing while doing nothing. (Meanwhile, like cowards welcoming cover from a Seal Team, they grouse about 'orders' while staying alive thanks to the risks taken by others. It's SO effeminate and beyond nauseating.)
Ultraviolet
There isn't anything we the laity can do aside from withholding our donations, @pgmgn Be a darling and go back to playing SOCOM 4. :P
123jussi
He as a big help to Fr Gruner too! What a waste!
pgmgn
You're hilarious, Ultraviolet. No wonder you're sucking up to a religious figure who will absolve you for doing NOTHING and pretending that those who may do something are bad. (Be a darling and don't grouse at who eschew emasculation in lieu of action. But keep laughing at the requisite jokes you need to keep the truth about your own lack from getting to you.)
tbswv
He is just spewing the Bergoglio rant against the SSPX. Wasn't he promoted recently by Bergolglio?
pgmgn
Burke is attempting to cast his own 'schismatic' attitude onto others. The SSPX is his convenient scapegoat. For if Burke were 'faithful and obedient' wouldn't he let the Holy Father determine the status of the SSPX in accordance with the whole of canon law?

But instead Burke self-styles as the traditional man while objectively undermining authority and placing the papal tiara on himself with …More
Burke is attempting to cast his own 'schismatic' attitude onto others. The SSPX is his convenient scapegoat. For if Burke were 'faithful and obedient' wouldn't he let the Holy Father determine the status of the SSPX in accordance with the whole of canon law?

But instead Burke self-styles as the traditional man while objectively undermining authority and placing the papal tiara on himself with the help of sycophantic podcasters desperate for a virtue signal.
Ultraviolet
"wouldn't he let the Holy Father determine the status of the SSPX in accordance with the whole of canon law?" @pgmgn The last two Holy Fathers and the present one have already done so.

--Pope John Paul II declared that the illicit consecrations were a schismatic act which "impli[ed] in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy" and that all six bishops involved in the ceremony had incur…More
"wouldn't he let the Holy Father determine the status of the SSPX in accordance with the whole of canon law?" @pgmgn The last two Holy Fathers and the present one have already done so.

--Pope John Paul II declared that the illicit consecrations were a schismatic act which "impli[ed] in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy" and that all six bishops involved in the ceremony had incurred automatic excommunication under the 1983 Code of Canon Law" He further wrote, in Ecclesia Dei, that "the root of this schismatic act can be discerned in an incomplete and contradictory notion of Tradition." ...and "formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God" and schism is a delict against religion and the unity of the church with a penalty of excommunication."

In 2009, Pope Benedict XVI reaffirmed that: "Until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty -do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church."

"On 20 November 2016, Pope Francis personally extended for priests of the society, until further provisions are made, the faculty by which "those faithful who, for various reasons, attend churches officiated by the priests of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X, can validly and licitly receive the sacramental absolution of their sins", a faculty he had already granted for the duration of the 2015-16 Jubilee Year.--

wikipedia.org/…Canonical_situation_of_the_Society_of_Saint_Pius_X

...and that's the only thing he's granted those priests, regardless of what they and their followers choose to extrapolate through tortured logic. In practice, it's no different than Cardinal Marx's own warped reasoning granting him the right to allow the German Church to bless homosexuals in open defiance of the Church's explicit condemnation.

Don't wave the word "Canon Law" around here to justify your claims unless you're citing it by number. Friendly warning... If you try arguing that particular subject with me, I will gut you like a trout.. ;-)
pgmgn
There you go again, Ultraviolet, apparently looking to Burke and CM to do your homework and tell you what truth is while they parse the truth and take it out of context. You're a kept creature. Kept in the dark and pumped full of superiority to make you "feel" great about yourself. Such a waste.

Your need to bold comments demonstrates your desperation to be right. To cover your emasculated self …More
There you go again, Ultraviolet, apparently looking to Burke and CM to do your homework and tell you what truth is while they parse the truth and take it out of context. You're a kept creature. Kept in the dark and pumped full of superiority to make you "feel" great about yourself. Such a waste.

Your need to bold comments demonstrates your desperation to be right. To cover your emasculated self with a shroud of superiority and virtue. That's kind of what Burke and Voris do on a regular basis.

Sorry, JPII's using the term 'schismatic act' is not a declaration of schism. One must put the 'act' in context to make a proper judgment and determination. JPII refused to do that because proper context would have revealed the utter disaster of VII ambiguity balloons.

The failure of JPII to act in declaring a formal schism and subsequently following up with the actions that would put the Society on par with actual schismatics is also telling. So in your eager pursuit of purity, watch out. Voris and Burke are making themselves a soft-pedal pope by overreaching our current pontiff to bamboozle you into a "trad" corner. Yet you are visibly deceived and EASILY so.

"Don't wave the word "Canon Law" around here to justify your claims unless you're citing it by number. Friendly warning... If you try arguing that particular subject with me, I will gut you like a trout.. ;-)"

Friendly warning, you're the trout, flopping on the ground to be collected, gutted, and fried. You're just to high on your own gills to know it.

scribd.com/document/3984779/Meuli-Letter-Re-Sspx
Tony Smith
Yes, but modernist heretics are perfectly part of the Church? You can't have it both ways. . .
Ultraviolet
They're not heretics until the Church says so. ;-)
pgmgn
And schism isn't schism until it's formally declared with evidence outside what Burke says out the side of his mouth while being wholly disobedient himself.
Abba Ebiega Patrick
Both liberals and conservatives rock the same ship. Both are mordernist they are not catholics only the traditionalist are. Burke is only a Conservative in the modernist heretical church.
Ultraviolet
The entire Catholic Church is not modernist, nor is it heretical. Just sayin'.
pgmgn
You're just sayin' a heap of Devil's Advocate nonsense, ultra violet. Why? That's the question. Whose water are you carrying?
Jump JET
Good grief...Jimmy Martin SJ prancing about the world is?
pgmgn
"The Cardinal is aware that PiusX accepts the Pope but not “his governance of the Church with regard to themselves.”"

The Cardinal, by this very statement, refuses the Pope's governance of the Church with regard to HIMSELF. How dare +Burke presume to set such a calumnious charge against another while exhibiting the very behavior he supposedly seeks to defame.

Shameful, shameful, and a total …More
"The Cardinal is aware that PiusX accepts the Pope but not “his governance of the Church with regard to themselves.”"

The Cardinal, by this very statement, refuses the Pope's governance of the Church with regard to HIMSELF. How dare +Burke presume to set such a calumnious charge against another while exhibiting the very behavior he supposedly seeks to defame.

Shameful, shameful, and a total SHAM.

Burke presumes to declare without any LAWFUL authority on another group of Catholics whom the Pope has demonstrated are not in schism. The SSPX itself demonstrates that it is not 'in schism' and perhaps that is what irritates the Cardinal to such a degree that he would continue to double down on his poor, utterly ill founded supposition.

Burke, in so saying as he keeps doing, is demonstrating a schismatic attitude and is leading the flock into division and doubt of fellow Catholics. Someone should call him to task for this. If I ever met the man, I surely would for I'm disgusted with those clerics who insist they are so faithful while faithfully doing nothing but covering their own hide.
Ultraviolet
"The Cardinal, by this very statement, refuses the Pope's governance of the Church with regard to HIMSELF." Wrong. Awareness of another's schism does not show being a schismatic one's self.

"Burke presumes to declare without any LAWFUL authority on another group of Catholics whom the Pope has demonstrated are not in schism."

The Pope hasn't "demonstrated" anything of the sort. What he's "demon…More
"The Cardinal, by this very statement, refuses the Pope's governance of the Church with regard to HIMSELF." Wrong. Awareness of another's schism does not show being a schismatic one's self.

"Burke presumes to declare without any LAWFUL authority on another group of Catholics whom the Pope has demonstrated are not in schism."

The Pope hasn't "demonstrated" anything of the sort. What he's "demonstrated" is that if The Church gives a schismatic so much as an inch of mercy, they'll presume it justifies their schism in toto.
pgmgn
You're adorable. Burke is declaring schism where none exists and attempting to speak against what is demonstrably true. BURKE incites schism in this fashion and, in a way, attempts to elevate himself to a position he has yet to receive.

The Pope has said the SSPX are Catholic because they are. Your refusal to humbly submit to the truth and give off your own pride and need to marginalize others …More
You're adorable. Burke is declaring schism where none exists and attempting to speak against what is demonstrably true. BURKE incites schism in this fashion and, in a way, attempts to elevate himself to a position he has yet to receive.

The Pope has said the SSPX are Catholic because they are. Your refusal to humbly submit to the truth and give off your own pride and need to marginalize others reveals your own schismatic attitude.

Same goes for Burke. Maybe he should take the log out of his own eye first. Although, CM is making quite a time of selling LOGS to those who believe they're the height of fashion.
P N F
Cardinal Burke said:

"...they [the SSPX] are not part of the one Roman Catholic Church throughout the world."

If Burke's statement reflects the position of "Pope Francis" (aka Cardinal Bergoglio) then how does Cardinal Burke explain the 2016 Apostolic Letter Misericordia et misera, in which "Pope Francis" states:

"For the Jubilee Year I had also granted that those faithful who, for various …More
Cardinal Burke said:

"...they [the SSPX] are not part of the one Roman Catholic Church throughout the world."

If Burke's statement reflects the position of "Pope Francis" (aka Cardinal Bergoglio) then how does Cardinal Burke explain the 2016 Apostolic Letter Misericordia et misera, in which "Pope Francis" states:

"For the Jubilee Year I had also granted that those faithful who, for various reasons, attend churches officiated by the priests of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X, can validly and licitly receive the sacramental absolution of their sins.[15] For the pastoral benefit of these faithful, and trusting in the good will of their priests to strive with God’s help for the recovery of full communion in the Catholic Church, I have personally decided to extend this faculty beyond the Jubilee Year, until further provisions are made, lest anyone ever be deprived of the sacramental sign of reconciliation through the Church’s pardon."

Here are the facts as "Pope Francis" states them above:

1. He recognizes the clergy of SSPX to be "priests."

2. He recognizes the places where these clergy "officiate" as "churches."

3. He recognizes those "attending" those "churches" to be "faithful."

4. He recognizes the sacramental absolution dispensed by those "priests" to those "faithful" in those "churches" to be "valid" and "licitly received."

So, it would appear that, unlike Cardinal Burke, "Pope Francis" thinks the SSPX are acting as validly ordained Roman Catholic priests with the full "ministry of the Keys." It would, therefore, seem that Cardinal Burke is actually the one who holds "schismatic position, which he defines as one who "accepts the Pope but doesn't accept his governance of the Church," since Burke does not accept the statement by "Pope Francis" concerning the SSPX in Misericordia et misera.

By the way, if "Pope Francis" has given the powers of sacramental absolution to people not part of "the one Roman Catholic Church throughout the world, then that act would be heretical and schismatic because of the following dogma of faith promulgated by the Council of Trent (Denzinger, 43rd edition, 1684 and 1686):

"With regard to the minister of this sacrament [the Sacrament of Absolution], the holy council declares: False and totally foreign to the truth of the Gospel are all doctrines that in a very destructive manner extend the ministry of the keys to any other men besides bishops and priests.
...

It is in the nature and meaning of a judgement that the sentence be pronounced only over one's subjects. Hence, the Church of God has always been convinced, and this council confirms a fully true, that absolution is of no value if it is pronounced by a priest on one over who he has neither ordinary non delegated jurisdiction."


So it would seem that either

a) Cardinal Burke is in a "schismatic position" with "Pope Francis," since "Pope Francis" has recognized the priestly ministry of the SSPX priests,

or that

b) Cardinal Burke is claiming that "Pope Francis" is in violation of a dogma of faith by recognizing allowing non-Catholic "priests" to dispense sacramental absolution.

Take your pick. Either way, it doesn't look good for Cardinal Burke.
pgmgn
You are spot on!!

Burke cannot explain his disconnect with Holy Mother Church when it comes to the SSPX. He cannot seem to explain his eagerness to overreach and declare something he has no authority to declare either.

It would seem the soft-pedal sedevecantist is Burke. (

He "says" he's in full communion with Rome while attempting to corral traditional minded Catholics to his own banner.
Ultraviolet
If Burke's statement reflects the position of "Pope Francis" (aka Cardinal Bergoglio).

First premise is a factually unsupported assumption.. Fake quotes are not needed around a Papal title and he isn't (aka Cardinal Bergoglio) anymore, except to a small delusional group of people who schismatically refuse to accept the current Pope's lawful authority.
pgmgn
Delusional would be Burke attempting to declare schism where there is none and crown himself the authority while feigning adherence to tradition.

I'm glad that you recognize the root of that issue even though you seem to want to sidetrack on the delusion of others.
Ultraviolet
@pgmgn "Delusional would be Burke attempting to declare schism where there is none..."

Cardinal Burke did not put the title "Pope Francis" into fake-quotes or refer to the man by a title that no longer applies. I sure as heck don't need you re-interpreting my comment to suit your own delusions, either. Your Fallacy Is:
pgmgn
Cardinal Burke puts everything in 'fake quotes' by spewing bold talk while doing ZIP.

As to the rest, I'll post where and how I like, Ultraviolet. My correction of your distraction was directed squarely at YOU. Maybe take responsibility for your words instead of projecting your issues.

But if you don't want redirects, perhaps you should set the example and keep your straw men/women at home. …More
Cardinal Burke puts everything in 'fake quotes' by spewing bold talk while doing ZIP.

As to the rest, I'll post where and how I like, Ultraviolet. My correction of your distraction was directed squarely at YOU. Maybe take responsibility for your words instead of projecting your issues.

But if you don't want redirects, perhaps you should set the example and keep your straw men/women at home. Diverting from the fact that Cardinal Burke is blowing schismatic smoke when he attempts to usurp papal authority under the mantle of tradition is no help. Unless you're a water carrier.

Cute graphic, though.
Ultraviolet
"Cardinal Burke puts everything in 'fake quotes' by spewing bold talk while doing ZIP."

...that isn't how "fake quotes" work, chum. In point of fact, I challenge you to show one instance of "fake quotes" from Cardinal Burke in the entire article, despite YOUR bold talk he "puts everything" (your words) in them.. C'mon... go for it. You made the claim, now let's see you back it up. You can't, …More
"Cardinal Burke puts everything in 'fake quotes' by spewing bold talk while doing ZIP."

...that isn't how "fake quotes" work, chum. In point of fact, I challenge you to show one instance of "fake quotes" from Cardinal Burke in the entire article, despite YOUR bold talk he "puts everything" (your words) in them.. C'mon... go for it. You made the claim, now let's see you back it up. You can't, you won't, because you're ranting and you don't know what the heck you're talking about..

"As to the rest, I'll post where and how I like, Ultraviolet. My correction of your distraction was directed squarely at YOU."

You can post where and how you like and I'll mock your stupidity accordingly when your posting "how I like" merits it, like it does here. You haven't corrected me at all, reinterpreting what I DID say isn't a correction all, it's still a strawman fallacy. Get with the program, bucko. If you're going to bandy fallacies about at least first figure out which ones even apply.

"perhaps you should set the example and keep your straw men/women at home"

None demonstrated by you on my part, sweetie. ;-) Don't make claims you can't support. I'll be on you in a heartbeat for it just like I am now. You sayin' it and you showin' it ain't the same. You made the same mistake accusing Cdl. Burke of using "fake quotes", too.

"that Cardinal Burke is blowing schismatic smoke"

The only "schismatic smoke" being blown around here on GTV is by the SSPX fan-boys and sadly it's coming from their backsides as it traditionally has from their leaders. That's the only "mantle of tradition" the Society has a valid claim to at this point. :D
pgmgn
Fist, I'm not your chum.

Second, fake quotes are your canard.

Burke has painted himself into an ineffectual corner by courting the letter without spirit and or entire context in his attempt to cast others as schismatic. That charge is simply false and has been proven so.

Your devolution into backsides, etc, demonstrates the inferior level of your argumentation. Are you also a fan of Martin …More
Fist, I'm not your chum.

Second, fake quotes are your canard.

Burke has painted himself into an ineffectual corner by courting the letter without spirit and or entire context in his attempt to cast others as schismatic. That charge is simply false and has been proven so.

Your devolution into backsides, etc, demonstrates the inferior level of your argumentation. Are you also a fan of Martin Luther's Table Talks?? Maybe so. Fanboy/fangirl perfectly describes your unwillingness to tease through the truth of matters instead of grasping on to outward trappings to make you feel better about doing NOTHING. (If that's the road you're called to, nothing, then own it. Others have been called to act. So why not appreciate the situation instead of being a paid heckler or is that a paid lemming.)

scribd.com/document/3984779/Meuli-Letter-Re-Sspx
123jussi
He needs to send himself a Dubia !
pgmgn
Love this!
V.R.S.
"the position of PiusX is "schismatic."
---
Ok. If in the revolutionary newspeak:
- traditional favouring of heresy and falsehood means "heroic virtue" (cf. e.g. the canonization of Quran kissing pope),
- traditional heretics are "separated brethren" (in communion but not full -cf. e.g. Unitatis redintegratio),
- traditional false religions are arks of elements of "truth and holiness" (Nostra …More
"the position of PiusX is "schismatic."
---
Ok. If in the revolutionary newspeak:
- traditional favouring of heresy and falsehood means "heroic virtue" (cf. e.g. the canonization of Quran kissing pope),
- traditional heretics are "separated brethren" (in communion but not full -cf. e.g. Unitatis redintegratio),
- traditional false religions are arks of elements of "truth and holiness" (Nostra Aetate) ,
- traditional heretical sects are means of "bringing salvation" "opening way to communion of saints" (Unitatis redintegratio & Ut unum sint) and
- traditional schismatics are "sister Churches" (Slavorum Apostoli),
- the Church of the Council is declared as something not identical with the Church of Christ (Lumen gentium)
then I assume that "schismatics" mean nowadays something completely different than in the traditional language the Church has always spoken.
Dr Bobus
Questions naturally follow:

Are the German Bishops part of the Church?

Is Cardinal Cupich part of the Church?
pgmgn
Question for Burke: Is Cardinal Burke part of the Church if he supersedes Francis to incorrectly and without authority declare others to be schismatic???
Ultraviolet
Sadly, @Dr Bobus and they will remain so, legally, until The Church says they are not.

Now then, pgmgn... show where Francis or Benedict XVI or JP II has explicitly stated the SSPX is once again in full communion with the Catholic Church. ;-) None of your farcical interpretations or PNF's based on a specific act of clemency. Direct quote.
pgmgn
OMG. Here you go again citing legalities in lieu of the fullness of the truth. Do you think Our Lord is fooled by legalities? If so, He would have wholly endorsed the Pharisees in their adherence to the letter without the spirit. (In the case of Burke and the SSPX, Burke ignores the whole letter, too, and context, and spirit. That makes others rightfully wonder at what spirit moves Burke... and …More
OMG. Here you go again citing legalities in lieu of the fullness of the truth. Do you think Our Lord is fooled by legalities? If so, He would have wholly endorsed the Pharisees in their adherence to the letter without the spirit. (In the case of Burke and the SSPX, Burke ignores the whole letter, too, and context, and spirit. That makes others rightfully wonder at what spirit moves Burke... and you, too. Laziness?)

Now Ultraviolet... show where 'full communion' is a traditional term or explain how it was invented to explain the inexplicable. Come on. Go for it.

None of your farcical foundations of picking-and-choosing canon law to suit your desperation to do nothing backs you up.

Do you grasp CCC 675? Maybe you should study that and ask yourself if you'll follow the 'religious' solution that demands apostasy from the Truth.

Get out of the fog induced by lolling on the couch ALL day.
Cath intruth
Does His Excellency not see why Abp Lefebvre had to do what he did?
pgmgn
No, his Excellency only sees the opportunity to assert himself as virtuous while making statements such as "Banning the Latin Mass is unacceptable" then doing absolutely nothing.

Hence the term 'nothing burger' aka tepid.
FrDJR
If it were not for Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre... Cardinal Burke would not be celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass in all of it's Glory and Honor! I hope he thinks about this...
pgmgn
I believe Cardinal Burke thinks excessively about the "actions" of Archbishop Marcel Lefebre and finds his himself lacking, FrDJR.

That's the only basis I can see for Burke doubling, tripling, and quadrupling down on the supposed schismatic "sins" of others while talking a great deal and doing absolutely NOTHING.

Arm Chair Quarter backing in clerical garb.
123jussi
Not accepting evil governance is not the same as not accepting governance.
beth alice arrow
The SSPX made it possible for your excellency to celebrate the Latin Mass freely , Thank God for the SSPX