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Roberto de Mattei on Vatican II: My word, even the Holy Spirit is judged and criticized

Winnowing of wheat continues apace


The Council of Jerusalem or Apostolic Council c. AD 50, considered by Catholics and Orthodox to be a prototype and forerunner of the later ecumenical councils:

“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us [...].” - Acts 15:28 (RSVCE).

Roberto de Mattei:

“The Holy Spirit nonetheless did not raise His voice against Communism. Therefore many historians and theologians are right, from Monsignor Gherardini to Cardinal Brandmüller, when they say the magisterial value and the binding authority of the conciliar texts has still all to be discussed, without excluding the idea that many of those documents might end up one day in the rubbish bin. But what is more important is that the Second Vatican Council is a historical event which cannot be reduced to muddled and ambiguous texts. Its distinctive note is the spirit which moved it: a spirit whereby, the way in which doctrine had to be presented to the faithful was more important than the doctrine itself.” (Source)
V.R.S.
The Council of Jerusalem and the following ecumenical councils gathered because of doctrinal problems to be decided. Dearly beloved by Commies (Metz agreement) and Jews (Strasburg talks of Fr. Congar) pope Roncalli convoked VII because he had wanted to. Then almost all schemas prepared by papal preparatory commissions got lost because the spirit of Alfrink, Koenig, Suenens, etc. wanted them in …More
The Council of Jerusalem and the following ecumenical councils gathered because of doctrinal problems to be decided. Dearly beloved by Commies (Metz agreement) and Jews (Strasburg talks of Fr. Congar) pope Roncalli convoked VII because he had wanted to. Then almost all schemas prepared by papal preparatory commissions got lost because the spirit of Alfrink, Koenig, Suenens, etc. wanted them in the trash can. Previous ecumenical councils taught as the extraordinary Magisterium , VII expressly resigned from the role of the extraordinary Magisterium (and the ecumenical council as such is extraordinary teaching body). Also the matters involved and discussed: heretic sects as sources of salvation, false religions, liberty of false religions, new world order and so do not pertain to oikumene i.e. the Catholic church thus are not ecumenical in the traditional meaning.
Ideas discussed were anything but orthodox and the mess arising was enormous e.g. as young bishop Karol Wojtyla remarked (but did not draw logical conclusions): it seemed to the founding fathers that the situation of men inside the Church with respect to salvation is much worse than the situation of men outside the Church who did not know the Church.Yes they were that insane.
F M Shyanguya
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
[Cf Credo Chart]

Articles 8 & 9 of the Creed.

And not:

Archbishop Marcel-François Lefebvre, C.S.Sp. † and his group

De Mattei and the Trad circles

Abp Viganò

@Dr Bobus


Et al
Dr Bobus
You forgot: Joseph Ratzinger

He was the first Cardinal to criticize certain aspects of the Council and its after. I have already mentioned him referring to the Protestant influence on Presbyterorum Ordinis. His book The Spirit of the Liturgy is also highly critical of the Novus Ordo.

And--as also already mentioned--there are certain texts in Vat II that I like. Two easy example: LG 25.3 expands…More
You forgot: Joseph Ratzinger

He was the first Cardinal to criticize certain aspects of the Council and its after. I have already mentioned him referring to the Protestant influence on Presbyterorum Ordinis. His book The Spirit of the Liturgy is also highly critical of the Novus Ordo.

And--as also already mentioned--there are certain texts in Vat II that I like. Two easy example: LG 25.3 expands the infallible authority of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium. And SS 10 makes it clear that the liturgy is a cause of the life of the Church.
F M Shyanguya
Maybe as Ratzinger [your understanding] but not as Pope - how many years as Pope to do something about it?! - nor as Pope Emeritus.
One more comment from F M Shyanguya
F M Shyanguya
@V.R.S. Why follow me around when you have no interest in what I have to say?
V.R.S.
@F M Shyanguya
Block me then and show that you dont want me to comment your texts. I am very interested what you say as well as I am very interested who decide here to spread a mischevous trolling. I am just watching who is who here to determine who has a good will though sometimes errs (we are all humans after all), so it's worth to talk with one and who is working here to ensure that the …More
@F M Shyanguya
Block me then and show that you dont want me to comment your texts. I am very interested what you say as well as I am very interested who decide here to spread a mischevous trolling. I am just watching who is who here to determine who has a good will though sometimes errs (we are all humans after all), so it's worth to talk with one and who is working here to ensure that the enormous crisis in the Church and in the state will go on, so any conversation is pointless.
Child of Our Lady
With the council that was supposed to 'let the fresh air in.' What have we seen?

- A severe lack of men entering the priesthood
- A lack of belief in the Real Presence--this includes Holy Communion in the hand/unconsecrated hands touching that which is consecrated & the Holy Eucharist (the precious Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of our Redeemer) being passed out in sealed bags like a cracker …More
With the council that was supposed to 'let the fresh air in.' What have we seen?

- A severe lack of men entering the priesthood
- A lack of belief in the Real Presence--this includes Holy Communion in the hand/unconsecrated hands touching that which is consecrated & the Holy Eucharist (the precious Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of our Redeemer) being passed out in sealed bags like a cracker instead of being received reverently as He deserves.
- A constant questioning of Dogma / vague & ambiguous wording for 'teachings' that leave interpretation up to the reader instead of defining something.
- Continued push for women's ordination (after the door to this has already closed)
- female altar boys (this is the first place a young man can discern if he has a call to the priesthood. You are limiting the recruiting pool by sticking girls there)
- Doubt of Our Lady's role as Co-Redemptrix & downplay her importance in our salvation.
- 'God wills multiple religions'/completely contradicts the First Commandment/dogma & what sacred scripture says
- Amazon idolatry/the desecration of the Catholic altar in the Vatican
- Confusion among the faithful
- Less children being born into the world & the ones that are born are rarely receiving all the sacraments
- People leaving the church in droves

I didn't bother including the sodomite scandals, to include trying to normalize sodomite unions, in there as St. Peter Damien had to deal with sodomites also. So, that vice has been in the church prior to V2.

There's obviously more that that. The Holy Ghost did guide that council. He guided them NOT to dare try to invoke infallibility.
F M Shyanguya
F M Shyanguya
The Spirit of Vatican II is the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit in all of the Church’s Ecumenical Councils and in the Council of Jerusalem. It is blasphemous to say this Spirit is evil.
Dr Bobus
You are uninformed--and I'm being kind .

Anything directly doctrinal in a Council has been produced under the protection of the Holy Spirit. It is presumption, a sin against the virtue of Hope, to insist that everything written n a Council has that same protection.

In fact, if what you write it is true, then there are texts in VatII that indicate that the Holy Spirit is ignorant of centuries …More
You are uninformed--and I'm being kind .

Anything directly doctrinal in a Council has been produced under the protection of the Holy Spirit. It is presumption, a sin against the virtue of Hope, to insist that everything written n a Council has that same protection.

In fact, if what you write it is true, then there are texts in VatII that indicate that the Holy Spirit is ignorant of centuries of Catholic life.
Dr Bobus
@F M Shyanguya

I've read a lot of the documents, heard lectures in theology classes, and wrote papers on certain aspects of them, as well as writing an article.

Btw, Cardinal Ratzinger himself said* that the document on the priesthood was influenced by Protestantism. And Cardinal Koenig, once the ordinary of Vienna said that Sacrosanctum Concilium (the document on liturgy) is not very good.

More
@F M Shyanguya

I've read a lot of the documents, heard lectures in theology classes, and wrote papers on certain aspects of them, as well as writing an article.

Btw, Cardinal Ratzinger himself said* that the document on the priesthood was influenced by Protestantism. And Cardinal Koenig, once the ordinary of Vienna said that Sacrosanctum Concilium (the document on liturgy) is not very good.

* On October 24, 1995, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, in a speech given on the 30th anniversary of Presbyterorum Ordinis.
F M Shyanguya
Repeating, present your expertise to the Church. Cf Similar comment below.
Dr Bobus
it's not necessary. As I mentioned before, certain Cardinals and theologians have already criticized certain texts of the Council. You're just not aware of them.

One easy example: I had a professor in Rome who more than once referred to Gaudium et Spes as naive. He became a bishop in the US.

BTW, the phrase Spirit of Vat II is usually considered to be the liberal interpretation of the Counci…More
it's not necessary. As I mentioned before, certain Cardinals and theologians have already criticized certain texts of the Council. You're just not aware of them.

One easy example: I had a professor in Rome who more than once referred to Gaudium et Spes as naive. He became a bishop in the US.

BTW, the phrase Spirit of Vat II is usually considered to be the liberal interpretation of the Council that ignores or de-emphasizes Church doctrine.
Ultraviolet
"We must obey every law of our great Church. We must follow Saint Athanasius, and not follow evil false laws." -not for you to decide which laws are "false". @Be Ye Heretic That reasoning opens the door to exactly the kind of drivel you and EMJ want to drive through it. Nice to see you're still flaming about Nostra Aetate as if that were the ONLY thing Vatican II produced. For bigots, it's the …More
"We must obey every law of our great Church. We must follow Saint Athanasius, and not follow evil false laws." -not for you to decide which laws are "false". @Be Ye Heretic That reasoning opens the door to exactly the kind of drivel you and EMJ want to drive through it. Nice to see you're still flaming about Nostra Aetate as if that were the ONLY thing Vatican II produced. For bigots, it's the only thing that matters.

JPII is officially a Catholic saint, btw. Just like Athanasius. Saints, are neither perfect nor without sin, nor without errors. Like always, you're just picking one saint you like because he was anti-Semitic. Good for you, bunky. Saint JPII wasn't and he was a Pope, too.

Protip: It's "Athanasius", champ. Double-check how EMJ spells it. Or did he get it wrong too? :D
Be Ye Separate
@F M Shyanguya You are absolutely correct, we must obey every law of our great Church. We must follow Saint Athenasius, and not follow evil false laws. Although he was persecuted and terribly outnumbered, he followed Church law-the truth, instead of going along with the numerous bishops who were evil or mistakingly fell into heresy.
We will know a tree by the fruit. The evil bishops at V2 got …More
@F M Shyanguya You are absolutely correct, we must obey every law of our great Church. We must follow Saint Athenasius, and not follow evil false laws. Although he was persecuted and terribly outnumbered, he followed Church law-the truth, instead of going along with the numerous bishops who were evil or mistakingly fell into heresy.
We will know a tree by the fruit. The evil bishops at V2 got what they wanted. They praised Muhammadans, Hinduism and other pagan cults. The rotten fruit this helped produce was JP2 worshipping with demonic pagans: "Pope John Paul II and the representatives of the world’s religions, including a Crow Indian medicine man from Montana and an African animist witch doctor, pledged Monday to work for peace." -LA Times
The evil fruit rots even more, with anti-pope Francis heading pagan idol worship at our most important Church on the earth!
We must be like St. Athenasius, live by the true teachings of our Holy Church.
foward
Faith cannot be contradictory. It never was.
But in the CVII there are contradictory statements with the usual faith. Therefore CVII is fake.
F M Shyanguya
@Be Ye Separate Pls see this comment of mine here:

The trajectory is quite clear and historical proven. Reject any of the Church’s Ecumenical Councils and one ends up attacking/being separated from the Church [Abp Lefebvre and his group] and eventually from God.

The arrogance here is astounding and also revealing the source of it. One reason De Mattei rejects the Council is because it didn’t …More
@Be Ye Separate Pls see this comment of mine here:

The trajectory is quite clear and historical proven. Reject any of the Church’s Ecumenical Councils and one ends up attacking/being separated from the Church [Abp Lefebvre and his group] and eventually from God.

The arrogance here is astounding and also revealing the source of it. One reason De Mattei rejects the Council is because it didn’t take up what he would have liked to have seen on its agenda. And now worse, even the Holy Spirit should have ensured that that was tabled for discussion. Astonishing! Amazing 😲!
Be Ye Separate
Oh I misunderstood, i thought you were quoting Mattei in favor of V2.
His statement reminds me of V2 documents, ambiguous.
Alex A
Don't get me going on the nonsense of V2. My family and I lived through the sudden and inane changes to our churches, liturgy, and orientation of codified laws leading to the demise of Catholicism as understood for 2000yrs. My thoughts are better articulated thus:

"What Catholics once were, we are. If we are wrong, then Catholics through the ages have been wrong.
We are what you once were. We …More
Don't get me going on the nonsense of V2. My family and I lived through the sudden and inane changes to our churches, liturgy, and orientation of codified laws leading to the demise of Catholicism as understood for 2000yrs. My thoughts are better articulated thus:

"What Catholics once were, we are. If we are wrong, then Catholics through the ages have been wrong.
We are what you once were. We believe what you once believed.
We worship as you once worshipped. If we are wrong now, you were wrong then. If you were right then, we are right now".

Robert DePiante
F M Shyanguya
@Alex A: Works of the enemies of the Church without and especially within, have nothing to do with Vatican II, a valid Ecumenical Council of the Church, and hence, with ALL the prerogatives of Church General/Ecumenical Councils as with all the other Councils.
Be Ye Separate
This statement by Mattei, in a confusing manner is condemning Vatican 2.
Mattei," ...Monsignor Gherardini to Cardinal Brandmüller, when they say the magisterial value and the binding authority of the conciliar texts has still all to be discussed, without excluding the idea that many of those documents might end up one day in the rubbish bin."
If the V2 documents are of the Holy Spirit and …
More
This statement by Mattei, in a confusing manner is condemning Vatican 2.
Mattei," ...Monsignor Gherardini to Cardinal Brandmüller, when they say the magisterial value and the binding authority of the conciliar texts has still all to be discussed, without excluding the idea that many of those documents might end up one day in the rubbish bin."
If the V2 documents are of the Holy Spirit and Church law, the magisterial value and binding authority would NOT have to be discussed.
Also, the Holy Spirit does NOT lead in works that might end up in the rubbish bin.
Dr Bobus
No, only texts specifying doctrine are protected from error by the Holy Spirit. You might want to consult both Vatican I & II, Pastor Aeternus and Lumen Gentium
Gesù è con noi
Pope Pius XI– The Communist system, with its authors and abettors condemned
-Communism is intrinsically wrong and no one may collaborate with it in any undertaking whatsoever
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith– Formal prohibition to join or favor Communist Parties – latae sententiae excommunication
Pope John XXIII– No Catholic can subscribe even to moderate Socialism – opposition betw…More
Pope Pius XI– The Communist system, with its authors and abettors condemned
-Communism is intrinsically wrong and no one may collaborate with it in any undertaking whatsoever
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith– Formal prohibition to join or favor Communist Parties – latae sententiae excommunication
Pope John XXIII– No Catholic can subscribe even to moderate Socialism – opposition between Communism and Christianity is fundamental. www.tfp.org/what-the-popes-…
Gesù è con noi
Apostate Hans Küng (1928-) Vatican II Theologian:"This time we are going to stay in the Church, and we are going to dismantle the Catholic Church from within."
One more comment from Gesù è con noi
Gesù è con noi
The heretics who influenced Vatican II denied the Holy Trinity. They do not have God as Father or the Church as Mother.
In fact they are persecuting the Catholic Church from within.
F M Shyanguya
No Jettisoning or Correcting Vatican II

“He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother.”
- St Cyprian of Carthage, Church Father
Dr Bobus
Only doctrinal teachings are infallible. I only know of one doctrinal teaching from Vatican 2
Dr Bobus
Two questions:
1. The Vat II concept of the priesthood found in Presbyterorum Ordinis is little else than a description of the parish priest. In so far as one third of all priests are in a religious institute, whose apostolates do not involve parish work, how is this description applicable to religious priests?

2. Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Vat II document on the liturgy, says that the Divine …More
Two questions:
1. The Vat II concept of the priesthood found in Presbyterorum Ordinis is little else than a description of the parish priest. In so far as one third of all priests are in a religious institute, whose apostolates do not involve parish work, how is this description applicable to religious priests?

2. Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Vat II document on the liturgy, says that the Divine Office is to be revised so that all the psalms, previously said in a week, were to be distributed over a longer time. (now 4 weeks). It allowed for no exceptions.

The problem is that Benedict's Holy Rule mandates the use of a weekly cycle of the psalms. Any monastery of Benedictines, Trappists, or (certain) Camaldolese is obligated to cover all 150 psalms in a week (the Rule calls it opus dei).

So should these monasteries have continued to follow Benedict's Rule or Vat II? BTW, most followed VatII--and their houses have been emptying for 50 years.
F M Shyanguya
Dubia for the Church [you are the one with issues with Council documents, not I]. Cf
Dr Bobus
Once again, there are theologians and Cardinals who have criticized the documents.

In fact, Fr John O'Malley SJ is a liberal who has written that Presbyterorum Ordinis does not reflect the life of priests in religious institutes (which comprise about one third of all priests in the West).
F M Shyanguya
People criticize God, His innerant Book, His Son, and His Mother. Will they spare His Church and her Teaching? Therefore just criticizing something is not [sufficient] argument against that thing being criticized.

And once again, they are not the Church.

Judgement is against those criticizing the Church, her Teaching, and now the Spirit Himself.

And once again, where are their dubia and the …More
People criticize God, His innerant Book, His Son, and His Mother. Will they spare His Church and her Teaching? Therefore just criticizing something is not [sufficient] argument against that thing being criticized.

And once again, they are not the Church.

Judgement is against those criticizing the Church, her Teaching, and now the Spirit Himself.

And once again, where are their dubia and the reply response from the Church? There is a process to these things. Produce these and perhaps we can start having a discussion because at the moment, we aren’t.