Well Holy Cannoli

I don't know exactly what anti-American Chap you mean
but I can ensure you I love all American.
Oh, and ... all Brits as well.

Since I made a recommendation for the lesbian poster to seek out websites in which she would feel more comfortable, I have a similar recommendation for a certain anti-American "chap" who also appears on this thread.

www.transgenderzone.com

@JTLuizza - Indeed. The Church consists of human beings trying to be holy. I think Muuno deifies the clergy, i.e. if a priest or Pope could teach error in the past, then what is to stop them today, and therefore could the teaching on homosexuality be erroneous? I think herein lies her problem, hence my advice to seek spiritual direction and to journey through her crisis in the privacy of prayer and study in this context.

Let us pray for her so that she might come to terms with the Church's teachings and give her whatever support we can, here on Gloria.tv.

@JTLiuzza

"First off, I gotta tell you I'm a communist. ;p

Second, no one holds monopoly as to what the Word of God truly is about. No one. Centuries of history have revealed to us that the Church has made mistakes. Popes have made mistakes. And big ones, too."?

Even heathens should be granted the benefit of hindsight. Given the evidence of the twentieth century it's stupid at best to be a communist.

The Catholic Church holds a "monopoly" by virtue of Her Founder. The Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth. Reject that and you reject life itself.

The Church has had some doozies for Popes. The very first Pope, St. Peter, chickened out under duress even though he thought he would never do such a thing. But afterwards he repented and his failure helped to galvenize him in his faith such that eventually he was martyred. He was crucified upside down, because he didn't want to die in the same way that your Lord and my Lord died.

Impeccable is not you or me. It is not a Pope, or Bishop. It is the Christ and His Holy Mother.

Be humble as a fallen creature and seek to fulfill His will with the time you've been given.

You're not as smart as you think you are. None of us are.

@philosopher - A most excellent presentation mate! Thanks.
@Muuno - I know that on Gloria.tv there are the chaps who love a 'witch-hunt' and love to carry torches of hate - two of whom are most present on this thread.

HOWEVER, try and plough through the writings of Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross. Like all the Saints before and after them, they speak of the intelect governing the emotions and so ruling ones actions. I get the distinct impression from your posts that you are thinking from the point of emotion - if it feels good and it does not hurt anyone, why not?! This is decidedly pagan and is at the root of many a pagan society, e.g. the ancient Persians, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Carolingians, etc. In the modern world we see this in the past European Empires, and now in the USA and European nations.

When something cannot be reconciled with ones faith, do not attempt to search for an hermeneutic 'way out'. If the FAITH says that homosexual sex is disordered, it is up to YOU to wrestle with this truth in the privacy of spiritual direction with your confessor, and in deep guided study and prayer. In doing so, you teach the Church's teachings, while you struggle with it. But NEVER, NEVER, try to disprove it, on the basis of emotional reasons. (Reason would not confound this teaching, for it is, as Philosopher has said, 'natural law'.)

God's speed Muuno!

@philosopher

Christus vincit Christus regnat Christus imperat
Viva il Papa!

@Muuno- The natural law argument for healthy and good human sexuality as existing within the bonds of marriage between one man and one woman- has never been refuted, because it can no more be refuted than 3 is the square root of 9 or the logical law of non-contradiction can be refuted. The truth of the Natural Law, that the Magisterium has handed on from Christ, whom is Truth itself, is true, not because they are socially constructed, but because they are transcendent to the social, cultural and historical plane of existence-this truth can be grasped by the light of natural reason, with an intrinsic necessity.

Second, Catholics who disagree with your relativising and deconstruction of human sexuality, don't hate anyone with same sex attractions or desires. We only hate the sin of sodomy, the action, not the person. We are all sinners, guilty of some sin or another, and we all are in need of the redemptive Grace of Our Lord through the sacraments.

Muuno,
I have really only come to this particular discussion very late in the piece. Please allow me, however, to add my twuppence-worth. I am sorry to pick up the dejected tone in your posting and I'm sorry if you feel that those who disagree with you are coming from prejudice rather than love. But at times what is required is tough love. The Church as a good Mother must set boundaries for its children otherwise passions, bad company, experimentation, rebellion, drugs and alcohol can lead people from the straight and narrow. Too often over the last 30 or so years situations have been allowed to develop where "mellowness" was all the vogue ... morals were thought to be flexible ... there was no black and white but a miasma of grey. BUT, in fact, objective truth, absolute truth about morals does exist and it is up to the Magisterium of the Church to teach what THAT is [and at some level in you, this idea, I suspect, must still resonate or else you would not have come to this website and attempted to dialogue so much]. So, please, do not be so quick to dismiss the "authority of the Church". It is not "the old fogey taking all fun out of life". It is actually the institution that, if it is heard and followed, will fill so many more people with hope, peace and, yes, fun. Fathers who don't go to bars, but go home to their families, to love their wives and provide the necessary male authority model for their children create not only a happy family now but well-rounded, integrated, faith-filled future models for countless more children who won't turn to drugs, alcohol, petty theft, low scholastic achievement and so on and so on and so on ... not a vicious cycle but a virtuous cycle. Parents who struggle together through stormy periods with perseverance and with the determination to focus and work on the love they had/have together rather than the present temporary irritant will not only create a truly growth-inducing platform for themselves but will also teach their chidren the reality that difficulties need to be faced, forgiveness must always be offered and so the kids will find themselves in a very secure environment in which to develop and grow. There are countless other examples of how following the teachings of the Church can actually solve problems and bring people closer together. People who have opposed what you say do not simply do it because it does no echo their own beliefs but because it does not follow the teachings of the Church. It may be small comfort but, on this issue, the Church has made it very clear that it does not focus on the actor but on the action. The latter is unacceptable in the Christian Community but ... there is a duty incumbent on all of us to challenge, naturally, but also support and encourage the former. So, Muuno, please don't leave this site. We are all sinners ... the Lord came to call sinners not the healthy. In his human nature He was tempted in ALL things that we are and he experienced to the nth degree EVERYTHING that we suffer. He understands us all - the young man out of work contemplating suicide; the young girl pregnant at 14 and the jock father refusing to take any resposibility; the young boy who can't take his eyes off another young woman in her class but can't understand why. Jesus though understands all these situations and is inviting all these people to let Him in to their heart so that He can give them peace - if they would only entrust themselves to His Divine Mercy. And the Church is there too ... clearly, unequivocally but also lovingly and gently presenting us with what is the right response in keeping with our true human nature. "GloriaTV" is for all who are humbly seeking the truth ... those who "continue to work out [their] salvation with fear and trembling".
Take care my sister and let's pray for each other ... you for me that I will be less keen to judge but see in ALL my sister and brother in Christ; me for you that you will humbly open yourself to the Lord's promptings coming to you through the teachings of His Church.
Peace!
Cristus vincit Christus regnat Christus imperat
Viva il Papa!

@WELL... apparently all of the people in here.

I'm tired of fighting all the battles. I could dispute your claims, but it's rarely worth it, so in just a few words, I disagree. If you choose prejudice over love, if you're willing to justify all such statements in the authority of the Church, if you will automatically discredit what people have to say simply because it does not echo your own beliefs - it is not okay. But there is nothing I can do about it. So I'll leave you alone.

"In direct opposition to both the mainstream gay movement and Lady Gaga, I would like to state for the record that I was not born this way."- Wow, out of the mouth of Babes.

Sorry if this grosses anyone out, but:

Acts of a sexual nature are always a choice. Even, the Man to Man sex-advocate Gore Vidal, said that. Desire is not a choice.
But, desires are not always pure, nor are they by necessity natural, or have to be acted upon by necessity.

The Church and Her Magesterial teachings are crystal clear- homosexual acts are gravely disordered.

@Muuno Why? Because these acts do not lead to life, or the flourishment of life. In the union between a man and woman, the natural designs of the reproductive organs teleologically are oriented and unified. Sodomy is teleological disoriented and is not an act of union, but of disunity. Why? The uterus is a place of life, but the lower intestines is a place of decay and death.

I always found it interesting, that gay couples who claim they are drawn to the same sex, actually, try to re-create a kind of psuedo-heterosexuality. In other words, in Lesbian couples one will take on a more masculine role, and the other a feminine one. Moreover, they use psuedo-male prosthetics in their sexual activity. We see the same in the male gay couples. One takes on the female role, and the other the masculine.
The man-girl’s lower intestines is used in substitution for female genitalia.

Clearly it is against Natural Law.

@Leone & Holyrope

I just thought I'd add this, though. I'm sorry if I've offended you through any of this. It was not my intention. See, that's one of the reasons this type of discrimination makes me angry - it makes people fling hurtful words at one another.

B.S. If it truly was your intention not to offend, you wouldn't be posting sodomite cr*p from sodomite websites on a Catholic/Christian message board. But “to offend” is exactly your intention and that's why you are here in the first place.

Incidentally, a splendid job of cutting and pasting from queer websites but I'm afraid it's all for naught. It was the same old typical sodomite justification garbage that I've seen before so I merely skimmed a few lines but enough to clearly see the degenerate agenda at work.

So, bottom line. Like I said. We’re not supposed to let the isolated quotes do all the talking.

You have actually stumbled upon part of the truth although you've, predictably, drawn the wrong conclusions.

Christ established a Church and Catholics look to that Church for guidance and for instruction in scriptural matters that seem to be contradictory or difficult to understand. No person or, especially, no group of deviates has the authority to determine what scripture means. The only infallible authority that can interpret the meaning of scripture is the divinely instituted instrument established by the Son of God. That instrument is His Catholic Church.

You, like all sodomites, have attempted to usurp the Divine authority of the Church for yourself. So you and your queer sources merrily twist and turn scripture to suit and to justify your own deviate agenda. Sorry, that won't work.

And incidentally – why have you insulted me repeatedly throughout your reply to my comment? I didn’t insult you.

When you insult or misrepresent the people, the institutions or those things that I love, as you have done, you are insulting me. It's personal and it deserves a personal response. That's the way I roll, Sodomite.

While you’re driving your new Cadillac around, do think of how many people that money could’ve fed and clothed.

In truth, my Cadillac is a few years old but women still love it and me. Nobody is starving in America and nobody is naked and I haven't taken a vow of poverty. My contributions to charity are my own business and not meant for a typical sick sodomite who is trying, in every way possible, to justify her own perversion.

Look, you don't belong here. If you want to read, if you want to learn, and if you want to be informed about Catholicism, fine. But, posting your homo-promo cr*p is out of line on a board devoted to Catholicism. You have plenty of places for like minded queers and this is not one of them. You are a disruptor, you are selfish, you are self-absorbed, you are inconsiderate of others and you are an anti-Christian bigot. The members here want to be with other like-minded Christians/Catholics/Orthodox. That should not be difficult for you to understand or to respect.

There are plenty of queer sites where you can attack the beliefs of Christians, distort the meaning of scripture and proclaim the joy of queerdom with impunity. You won't see me preaching on your sites and I don't expect to see you preaching on this one.

You've taken up too much of my time already, I've said all I need to say and I'm done with you.

Arividerchi

@Holy Cannoli

(6 - and last.)

I just thought I'd add this, though. I'm sorry if I've offended you through any of this. It was not my intention. See, that's one of the reasons this type of discrimination makes me angry - it makes people fling hurtful words at one another.

@Holy Cannoli

(5)

“Nobody has condemned anybodyexcept for you condemning straights who care about basic survival essentials such as their car, house, money etc. etc."

Well – “nobody has condemned anybody” – I wouldn’t exactly say that. Historically, many people and institutions have discriminated against homosexuals. But you and I already know this.

I guess I wasn’t clear enough, in my critique of the middle class. I want to clarify that I mean no harm against people who “care about basic survival/living essentials.” All humans in the world do that. I just don’t think Jesus approves of people who only care about themselves and about their stuff, and don’t care to do something to remedy the great poverty and injustice there is in the world.

While you’re driving your new Cadillac around, do think of how many people that money could’ve fed and clothed.

And incidentally – why have you insulted me repeatedly throughout your reply to my comment? I didn’t insult you. Only, if you’re one of those people who don’t care about the rest of the world, I’d say you maybe need to rethink what you’re doing, and ask yourself whether your lifestyle really matches the message of God. Or whether you’re just being a sodomite, in Ezekiel’s terms (16:48-49).