Abp. VIGANÒ : DILECTA MEA — About the HOLY APOSTOLIC MASS You who permit yourselves to prohibit the Holy Apostolic Mass, have you ever celebrated it? You who from the height of your liturgical cathedrae …More
Abp. VIGANÒ : DILECTA MEA — About the HOLY APOSTOLIC MASS
You who permit yourselves to prohibit the Holy Apostolic Mass, have you ever celebrated it? You who from the height of your liturgical cathedrae are piqued about the “old Mass,” have you ever meditated on its prayers, its rites, and its ancient and sacred gestures? I have asked myself this many times in the past few years: because I myself, even though I knew this Mass since I was very young; even though I had learned to serve it and respond to the celebrant when I was so little that I was still wearing boys’ knickers, I had almost forgotten it and lost it. Introibo ad altare Dei. Kneeling in winter on the ice-cold steps of the altar, before going to school. Sweating on hot summer days under my altar boy’s vestments. I had forgotten that Mass, even though it was the Mass of my ordination as a priest on 24 March 1968: an era in which one could already perceive the signs of the revolution that shortly thereafter would deprive the …More
You who permit yourselves to prohibit the Holy Apostolic Mass, have you ever celebrated it? You who from the height of your liturgical cathedrae are piqued about the “old Mass,” have you ever meditated on its prayers, its rites, and its ancient and sacred gestures? I have asked myself this many times in the past few years: because I myself, even though I knew this Mass since I was very young; even though I had learned to serve it and respond to the celebrant when I was so little that I was still wearing boys’ knickers, I had almost forgotten it and lost it. Introibo ad altare Dei. Kneeling in winter on the ice-cold steps of the altar, before going to school. Sweating on hot summer days under my altar boy’s vestments. I had forgotten that Mass, even though it was the Mass of my ordination as a priest on 24 March 1968: an era in which one could already perceive the signs of the revolution that shortly thereafter would deprive the …More
rhemes1582
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I often consider how wonderful it is for the priest at the Traditional Latin Mass to be able to privately(Facing our Lord) worship God with us at Holy Mass. Intimately offering prayers, and Sacrifice. Sadly this private worship is stripped from priests that only offer Novus Ordo as they must bear themselves before the parish (no privacy). Holy Mass is public worship, but also very personal for all …More
I often consider how wonderful it is for the priest at the Traditional Latin Mass to be able to privately(Facing our Lord) worship God with us at Holy Mass. Intimately offering prayers, and Sacrifice. Sadly this private worship is stripped from priests that only offer Novus Ordo as they must bear themselves before the parish (no privacy). Holy Mass is public worship, but also very personal for all in attendance including a priest offering the Traditional Liturgy.( as it should be).
No doubt personal for all good priests, just not privacy for all.
No doubt personal for all good priests, just not privacy for all.
How can one ever understand the soul of a Priest, another Christ, alter Christus, and that unique, ineffable, mystical encounter which a Priest has with the Eternal, All-Holy and ever-Beauteous Trinity at the Altar in this ancient Liturgy, in this act of impetration, satisfaction and adoration for the entire world in the Name of Chris, as Christ and in Christ?
Mike Tierno shares this
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Angelo Santelli
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I knew back in 1964 that this liturgical monstrosity that Montini (how is he "Saint" Paul VI? If he's in heaven, I am a shoe in) and Bugnini engineered was if not evil, totally wrong to its core. Yet I and others were forced to cow tow to the whims of an order that had no basis in reality. It is said Pacelli expressed interest in "modernizing" the sacred liturgy. If he did (he is "Blessed" now, is …More
I knew back in 1964 that this liturgical monstrosity that Montini (how is he "Saint" Paul VI? If he's in heaven, I am a shoe in) and Bugnini engineered was if not evil, totally wrong to its core. Yet I and others were forced to cow tow to the whims of an order that had no basis in reality. It is said Pacelli expressed interest in "modernizing" the sacred liturgy. If he did (he is "Blessed" now, is he not?) it is at least not held he sought to vernacularize what simply could not be vernacularized. But now we have satanic Bergoglio, colon compromised and all, going to a CD store to buy a musical CD while he is in his papal cassock. This is what the RC Church has come down to? I still pray the Latin Mass, as do a number of others I know. I do not accept that Montini is a Saint-- I remember well as a young cleric saying over and over that Montini was the worst Pope in history as Montini was belching forth "The smoke of Satan has entered the Church-- yes, and who let it in? . Montini sent Bugnini off to Iran at that time, but he would not reverse the filth Bugnini engineered. Yes, I thought Montini was the worst--I had no idea that Jorge Bergoglio would make him look saintly.
Interesting point about Francis going into the CD store to get classical music... Apparently beautiful music is good enough for his recreation, but not for God, Lord of Heaven and Earth, Who must be regularly insulted with the likes of the modern tripe and infantile songs they now play at the Novus Ordo.
Benedicamus Domino !
petrus100452
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Perfect example how one can make of something beautiful (the Tridentine Mass) an idol. I have never heard Mary speaking in one of her apparitions about the Tridentine Mass. She talks about reverence and faith, but nowhere about form. She calls for the Mass to be our most important moment of the day, but she never criticizes the Novus Ordo when it is celebrated in faith and reverence. John Paul II …More
Perfect example how one can make of something beautiful (the Tridentine Mass) an idol. I have never heard Mary speaking in one of her apparitions about the Tridentine Mass. She talks about reverence and faith, but nowhere about form. She calls for the Mass to be our most important moment of the day, but she never criticizes the Novus Ordo when it is celebrated in faith and reverence. John Paul II and Mother Teresa (and many of her sisters) became saints while celebrating the Novus Ordo... I highly appreciate Msgr. Vigano in his analyses of the situation of the Church and the world, but his absolutism regarding the Tridentine Mass is an aberration.
petrus100452
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@V.R.S. your comment shows how superficial you become when you exclusively attend the Tridentine Mass (and yes, also the faithful celebrate the Mass. It is not an exclusive affair of the priest, as you seem to assume).
petrus100452
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@V.R.S. Horrified that I have not passed the judgment of your tribunal..... I still believe in the call to participate in the Sacrifice of Christ. However, I can imagine that someone who merely "attends" the Tridentine Mass cannot understand this.
petrus100452
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@Chat Chartreux I am not claiming that the Mass is an "idol." I am only saying that Bishop Vigano makes an idol of the Tridentine Mass by making this form virtually absolute. The Novus Ordo, celebrated reverently and without abuse, can just as well make sacramentally present the Sacrifice of Christ and spiritually nourish and strengthen the faithful.
@petrus100452 This is where it is necessary to know and understand Church History.
Pope Pius V in the 16th Century, precisely to eliminate and rid the ancient liturgies of man-made contrivances and modifications not deemed the work of the Holy Ghost in the otherwise gradual, historic and organic "blossoming" of the Liturgy for the Glory of God over the first few centuries, codified the Traditional …More
@petrus100452 This is where it is necessary to know and understand Church History.
Pope Pius V in the 16th Century, precisely to eliminate and rid the ancient liturgies of man-made contrivances and modifications not deemed the work of the Holy Ghost in the otherwise gradual, historic and organic "blossoming" of the Liturgy for the Glory of God over the first few centuries, codified the Traditional Latin Mass, issuing an Apostolic Constitution Quo Primum which guaranteed the use of the Immemorial Mass as developed in the early centuries "in perpetuity" and even issued a grave warning -- an anathema!! -- against those who would suppress or change it in any way.
This was done not because Pope Pius V was "idolizing" the Mass, but because he deemed this Mass -- rightly so -- to be the Sacred Patrimony received from God Himself through His Church over the first few centuries of its glorious maturation into a Liturgy willed by God as its Author; and ought not to be trifled with or altered in any substantial way ever again, as was happening at the time he issued the Apostolic Constitution.
Here are some excerpts from Quo Primum below. So while there are those who contest whether this declaration by Pius V would be binding upon future Popes, Pope Pius V's intention to preserve what the Church has received from God Himself under the action of the Holy Ghost vs. some man-made replacement is certainly clear, wise and compelling.
The "Mass of Paul VI" which was imposed after Vatican II was hastily cobbled together after extensive consultation with Protestants to remove "dogmatically problematic" elements from the Mass to please these Protestants (with some so of its texts reportedly written down on a napkin over dinner), and was not the Mass which the Church has preserved for over 1,500 years as its sacred legacy and trust.
QUO PRIMUM:
"From the very first, upon Our elevation to the chief Apostleship, We gladly turned our mind and energies and directed all our thoughts to those matters which concerned the preservation of a pure liturgy, and We strove with God’s help, by every means in our power, to accomplish this purpose.
"Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us.
"This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world, to all patriarchs, cathedral churches, collegiate and parish churches, be they secular or religious, both of men and of women – even of military orders – and of churches or chapels without a specific congregation in which conventual Masses are sung aloud in choir or read privately in accord with the rites and customs of the Roman Church. This Missal is to be used by all churches, even by those which in their authorization are made exempt, whether by Apostolic indult, custom, or privilege, or even if by oath or official confirmation of the Holy See, or have their rights and faculties guaranteed to them by any other manner whatsoever.
[...]
"All other of the churches referred to above, however, are hereby denied the use of other missals, which are to be discontinued entirely and absolutely; whereas, by this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever, We order and enjoin that nothing must be added to Our recently published Missal, nothing omitted from it, nor anything whatsoever be changed within it under the penalty of Our displeasure.
"We specifically command each and every patriarch, administrator, and all other persons or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be, be they even cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence, and We order them in virtue of holy obedience to chant or to read the Mass according to the rite and manner and norm herewith laid down by Us and, hereafter, to discontinue and completely discard all other rubrics and rites of other missals, however ancient, which they have customarily followed; and they must not in celebrating Mass presume to introduce any ceremonies or recite any prayers other than those contained in this Missal.
"Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us.
"We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemorial prescription – except, however, if more than two hundred years’ standing.
"Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Would anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul."
Pope Pius V in the 16th Century, precisely to eliminate and rid the ancient liturgies of man-made contrivances and modifications not deemed the work of the Holy Ghost in the otherwise gradual, historic and organic "blossoming" of the Liturgy for the Glory of God over the first few centuries, codified the Traditional Latin Mass, issuing an Apostolic Constitution Quo Primum which guaranteed the use of the Immemorial Mass as developed in the early centuries "in perpetuity" and even issued a grave warning -- an anathema!! -- against those who would suppress or change it in any way.
This was done not because Pope Pius V was "idolizing" the Mass, but because he deemed this Mass -- rightly so -- to be the Sacred Patrimony received from God Himself through His Church over the first few centuries of its glorious maturation into a Liturgy willed by God as its Author; and ought not to be trifled with or altered in any substantial way ever again, as was happening at the time he issued the Apostolic Constitution.
Here are some excerpts from Quo Primum below. So while there are those who contest whether this declaration by Pius V would be binding upon future Popes, Pope Pius V's intention to preserve what the Church has received from God Himself under the action of the Holy Ghost vs. some man-made replacement is certainly clear, wise and compelling.
The "Mass of Paul VI" which was imposed after Vatican II was hastily cobbled together after extensive consultation with Protestants to remove "dogmatically problematic" elements from the Mass to please these Protestants (with some so of its texts reportedly written down on a napkin over dinner), and was not the Mass which the Church has preserved for over 1,500 years as its sacred legacy and trust.
QUO PRIMUM:
"From the very first, upon Our elevation to the chief Apostleship, We gladly turned our mind and energies and directed all our thoughts to those matters which concerned the preservation of a pure liturgy, and We strove with God’s help, by every means in our power, to accomplish this purpose.
"Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us.
"This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world, to all patriarchs, cathedral churches, collegiate and parish churches, be they secular or religious, both of men and of women – even of military orders – and of churches or chapels without a specific congregation in which conventual Masses are sung aloud in choir or read privately in accord with the rites and customs of the Roman Church. This Missal is to be used by all churches, even by those which in their authorization are made exempt, whether by Apostolic indult, custom, or privilege, or even if by oath or official confirmation of the Holy See, or have their rights and faculties guaranteed to them by any other manner whatsoever.
[...]
"All other of the churches referred to above, however, are hereby denied the use of other missals, which are to be discontinued entirely and absolutely; whereas, by this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever, We order and enjoin that nothing must be added to Our recently published Missal, nothing omitted from it, nor anything whatsoever be changed within it under the penalty of Our displeasure.
"We specifically command each and every patriarch, administrator, and all other persons or whatever ecclesiastical dignity they may be, be they even cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, or possessed of any other rank or pre-eminence, and We order them in virtue of holy obedience to chant or to read the Mass according to the rite and manner and norm herewith laid down by Us and, hereafter, to discontinue and completely discard all other rubrics and rites of other missals, however ancient, which they have customarily followed; and they must not in celebrating Mass presume to introduce any ceremonies or recite any prayers other than those contained in this Missal.
"Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us.
"We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemorial prescription – except, however, if more than two hundred years’ standing.
"Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Would anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul."
@petrus100452
"I can imagine that someone who merely "attends" the Tridentine Mass cannot understand this"
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I dont know because I don"t attend the Tridentine Mass but the Holy Mass in the traditional Roman Rite of the Holy Church. You attend the revolutionary liturgical experiment of Hannibaal Bugnini and G. Montini (Paul VI). Here lies your problem and a source of your vain arguments.
"I still …More
@petrus100452
"I can imagine that someone who merely "attends" the Tridentine Mass cannot understand this"
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I dont know because I don"t attend the Tridentine Mass but the Holy Mass in the traditional Roman Rite of the Holy Church. You attend the revolutionary liturgical experiment of Hannibaal Bugnini and G. Montini (Paul VI). Here lies your problem and a source of your vain arguments.
"I still believe in the call to participate in the Sacrifice of Christ"
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You believe in the Sacrifice of Christ. As to authors of the above-mentioned experiment I have huge doubts in that matter.
"I can imagine that someone who merely "attends" the Tridentine Mass cannot understand this"
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I dont know because I don"t attend the Tridentine Mass but the Holy Mass in the traditional Roman Rite of the Holy Church. You attend the revolutionary liturgical experiment of Hannibaal Bugnini and G. Montini (Paul VI). Here lies your problem and a source of your vain arguments.
"I still believe in the call to participate in the Sacrifice of Christ"
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You believe in the Sacrifice of Christ. As to authors of the above-mentioned experiment I have huge doubts in that matter.
petrus100452
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@V.R.S. When I read your comments, I think "could Pope Francis be right after all that the faithful who go to the "Holy Mass in the traditional Roman Rite of the Holy Church" consider themselves better Catholics than the rest? It seems so, but I don't want to generalize. There will be more humble "traditionalists" too. But your views do provide a great justification for Pope Francis to turn against …More
@V.R.S. When I read your comments, I think "could Pope Francis be right after all that the faithful who go to the "Holy Mass in the traditional Roman Rite of the Holy Church" consider themselves better Catholics than the rest? It seems so, but I don't want to generalize. There will be more humble "traditionalists" too. But your views do provide a great justification for Pope Francis to turn against this attitude of faith.
@petrus100452
"When I read your comments, I think "could Pope Francis be right after all that the faithful who go to the "Holy Mass in the traditional Roman Rite of the Holy Church" consider themselves better Catholics than the rest? It seems so, but I don't want to generalize. There will be more humble "traditionalists" too"
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The problem is that F and you love subjectivism (like when he said …More
@petrus100452
"When I read your comments, I think "could Pope Francis be right after all that the faithful who go to the "Holy Mass in the traditional Roman Rite of the Holy Church" consider themselves better Catholics than the rest? It seems so, but I don't want to generalize. There will be more humble "traditionalists" too"
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The problem is that F and you love subjectivism (like when he said that the great majority of sacramental marriages was invalid). I am interested in objective reality. It is not a question whether the traditional Roman Rite is nicer, more beatiful for you or that gives you goose bumps of whatever but what Liturgy is, what Tradition is, what Faith, what rite is if and, in consequence, what the concrete rite should be. Period.
It has nothing to do with feeling humble or loving to bumble. Moreover, relating to feelings (or feelings better) of one person or another I will use the famous quotation: "who are you to judge?"
"But your views do provide a great justification for Pope Francis to turn against this attitude of faith.""
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My views do not provide anything as (see above) you missed my point entirely.
"When I read your comments, I think "could Pope Francis be right after all that the faithful who go to the "Holy Mass in the traditional Roman Rite of the Holy Church" consider themselves better Catholics than the rest? It seems so, but I don't want to generalize. There will be more humble "traditionalists" too"
---
The problem is that F and you love subjectivism (like when he said that the great majority of sacramental marriages was invalid). I am interested in objective reality. It is not a question whether the traditional Roman Rite is nicer, more beatiful for you or that gives you goose bumps of whatever but what Liturgy is, what Tradition is, what Faith, what rite is if and, in consequence, what the concrete rite should be. Period.
It has nothing to do with feeling humble or loving to bumble. Moreover, relating to feelings (or feelings better) of one person or another I will use the famous quotation: "who are you to judge?"
"But your views do provide a great justification for Pope Francis to turn against this attitude of faith.""
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My views do not provide anything as (see above) you missed my point entirely.
petrus100452
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you really are a wiseass.... you don't know me at all, you don't know my background nor my views and yet you already know how to classify me and say exactly where my lack of understanding lies, that I like 'subjectivism', etc, etc. And you think that you know better than anyone what Liturgy is, what Tradition is, what Faith is.... IMHO you have a lot to learn in life. May God bless you.
petrus100452
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@V.R.S. you are a genius (probably in your own eyes) that you think you know someone when you have only read a few of his comments. Again: I think you have a lot to learn in life.
@petrus100452
"you think you know someone when you have only read a few of his comments"
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Oh. I don't know "someone" but I know his stance on the question of the Holy Mass and the Catholic Faith because to those questions your above comments referred to.
Today, I got to know also your position with regard to the Medjugorje hoax - so I can tell that everyday I get to know you more and more.More
@petrus100452
"you think you know someone when you have only read a few of his comments"
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Oh. I don't know "someone" but I know his stance on the question of the Holy Mass and the Catholic Faith because to those questions your above comments referred to.
Today, I got to know also your position with regard to the Medjugorje hoax - so I can tell that everyday I get to know you more and more.
"you think you know someone when you have only read a few of his comments"
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Oh. I don't know "someone" but I know his stance on the question of the Holy Mass and the Catholic Faith because to those questions your above comments referred to.
Today, I got to know also your position with regard to the Medjugorje hoax - so I can tell that everyday I get to know you more and more.