Transvaluation of All Values: Protestant Neo-Cardinal Call Mass “Protestant”
Neo-Cardinal Arthur Roche, known for his ideological stubbornness, condemned Catholics for “stubbornly opposing" what "the Church" [= Roche] has decreed "and that’s a very serious matter.” A "very …More
Neo-Cardinal Arthur Roche, known for his ideological stubbornness, condemned Catholics for “stubbornly opposing" what "the Church" [= Roche] has decreed "and that’s a very serious matter.”
A "very serious matter" is that the decadent Vatican is persecuting the Holy Mass while promoting homo/sexual fornication.
According to Christopher Lamb (Twitter.com, August 27) Roche said that "in the end people [in the Vatican] have to ask themselves: am I really a Catholic or am I more of a Protestant?” It's interesting that Roche uses "Protestant" as a swearword.
Roche insinuated that the Novus Ordo which was invented after 1969 was "created at Vatican II" (1962-65). The sad fact is that the Second Eucharistic prayer - which is most popular in the Novus Ordo because it is so short - was written on the fly in a Roman restaurant (sic).
A legalistic Roche insisted that if one rejects the "legislation" of a Council “you are putting yourself sideways towards the edges of the Church, you are becoming …More
A "very serious matter" is that the decadent Vatican is persecuting the Holy Mass while promoting homo/sexual fornication.
According to Christopher Lamb (Twitter.com, August 27) Roche said that "in the end people [in the Vatican] have to ask themselves: am I really a Catholic or am I more of a Protestant?” It's interesting that Roche uses "Protestant" as a swearword.
Roche insinuated that the Novus Ordo which was invented after 1969 was "created at Vatican II" (1962-65). The sad fact is that the Second Eucharistic prayer - which is most popular in the Novus Ordo because it is so short - was written on the fly in a Roman restaurant (sic).
A legalistic Roche insisted that if one rejects the "legislation" of a Council “you are putting yourself sideways towards the edges of the Church, you are becoming …More
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---from the text----
A legalistic Roche insisted that if one rejects the "legislation" of a Council “you are putting yourself sideways towards the edges of the Church, you are becoming more Protestant than Catholic.
Most ignorant people that pretend to know much about theology and in reality they are not aware of theology or church law. They turned around the law.
They reasoned that Jesus said: …More
---from the text----
A legalistic Roche insisted that if one rejects the "legislation" of a Council “you are putting yourself sideways towards the edges of the Church, you are becoming more Protestant than Catholic.
Most ignorant people that pretend to know much about theology and in reality they are not aware of theology or church law. They turned around the law.
They reasoned that Jesus said: And I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.
That Jesus saying is short for: I will give you much power.
But it cuts two ways because in the context of the gospel it means: Now you have much responsibility and be careful with what you do because we in the heavens follow suit.
The Vatican seems to reason: Whatever we do and decide is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and thus correct. Of course this is only true when they hear the Holy Spirit and do the will of God.
But the Vatican itself says that there could be a mistake and there is a way to recognize this mistake.
The international theological commision ITC says on the Vatican page:
As a result, the faithful have an instinct for the truth of the Gospel, which enables them to recognise and endorse authentic Christian doctrine and practice, and to reject what is false. That supernatural instinct, intrinsically linked to the gift of faith received in the communion of the Church, is called the sensus fidei, and it enables Christians to fulfil their prophetic calling.
This same ITC is the institution that warned against liberation theology that seems to become mainstream in a neo-jacket.
In this document the ITC distinguishes between faithful as in all catholics on the one hand, and faithful as in practising catholics.
It states:
Discussion of dispositions appropriate to the sensus fidei needs to be supplemented with consideration of some important practical and pastoral questions, regarding, in particular, the relationship between the sensus fidei and popular religiosity; the necessary distinction between the sensus fidei, on the one hand, and public or majority opinion, on the other; and how to consult the faithful in matters of faith and morals. These points will now be considered in turn.
etc
For this reason it is important to sense the faithful (fidei) and not the majority of catholics like if it were election day.
But unfortunately as it is also this document can be interpreted by anyone in his own advantage while deliberately choosing for oneself who is faithful.
Therefore in my opinion in the context of the gospel it boils down to Matthew 16:19:
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
It is therefore not protestant if something unexpected happens in a large group of catholics, like opposition to vatican II. It could well be the Holy Spirit trying to maintain a tradition or even trying to make a correction.
A legalistic Roche insisted that if one rejects the "legislation" of a Council “you are putting yourself sideways towards the edges of the Church, you are becoming more Protestant than Catholic.
Most ignorant people that pretend to know much about theology and in reality they are not aware of theology or church law. They turned around the law.
They reasoned that Jesus said: And I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.
That Jesus saying is short for: I will give you much power.
But it cuts two ways because in the context of the gospel it means: Now you have much responsibility and be careful with what you do because we in the heavens follow suit.
The Vatican seems to reason: Whatever we do and decide is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and thus correct. Of course this is only true when they hear the Holy Spirit and do the will of God.
But the Vatican itself says that there could be a mistake and there is a way to recognize this mistake.
The international theological commision ITC says on the Vatican page:
As a result, the faithful have an instinct for the truth of the Gospel, which enables them to recognise and endorse authentic Christian doctrine and practice, and to reject what is false. That supernatural instinct, intrinsically linked to the gift of faith received in the communion of the Church, is called the sensus fidei, and it enables Christians to fulfil their prophetic calling.
This same ITC is the institution that warned against liberation theology that seems to become mainstream in a neo-jacket.
In this document the ITC distinguishes between faithful as in all catholics on the one hand, and faithful as in practising catholics.
It states:
Discussion of dispositions appropriate to the sensus fidei needs to be supplemented with consideration of some important practical and pastoral questions, regarding, in particular, the relationship between the sensus fidei and popular religiosity; the necessary distinction between the sensus fidei, on the one hand, and public or majority opinion, on the other; and how to consult the faithful in matters of faith and morals. These points will now be considered in turn.
etc
For this reason it is important to sense the faithful (fidei) and not the majority of catholics like if it were election day.
But unfortunately as it is also this document can be interpreted by anyone in his own advantage while deliberately choosing for oneself who is faithful.
Therefore in my opinion in the context of the gospel it boils down to Matthew 16:19:
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
It is therefore not protestant if something unexpected happens in a large group of catholics, like opposition to vatican II. It could well be the Holy Spirit trying to maintain a tradition or even trying to make a correction.
Wilma Lopez shares this
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Arthur Roche: Devotion to the Latin Mass instead of Novus Ordo is more Protestant than Catholic
John A Cassani
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Blind obedience to whomever is in charge is, evidently, the mark of a true “catholic” in the era we live in.
Lisi Sterndorfer
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Cardinal Roche calling us Protestants is deeply disturbing
mccallansteve
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Dear cardinal, the NO that you so love is protestant light. It has destroyed the faith of countless Catholics and that doesn't bother you at all, does it?
Kenjiro M. Yoshimori
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Very shortly, when Francis is gone, so to will be gone Roche, and all Francis appointments. I think we are in for a surprise with a new Pope......totally opposite to Francis. Still giving lip-service to Vatican II, but much to the right of Francis, almost even traditionalist. The LAtin Mass will be given even greater freedom than Summorum Pontificum, and a handful of religious Orders, wishing to …More
Very shortly, when Francis is gone, so to will be gone Roche, and all Francis appointments. I think we are in for a surprise with a new Pope......totally opposite to Francis. Still giving lip-service to Vatican II, but much to the right of Francis, almost even traditionalist. The LAtin Mass will be given even greater freedom than Summorum Pontificum, and a handful of religious Orders, wishing to save themselves from VAtican II extinction, will allow members wide range to restore the LAtin Mass in their houses......among the first to do so will be the CArthusians and the Dominicans and CArmelites.
John Fritz Logan
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How much longer do you think Francis has to live? Will he make it to April next year? If not, Cardinal Duka will thankfully be able to participate in the conclave.
Clement Jaeho Chung
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@Kenjiro M. Yoshimori ...really,really hope this crazy Old man's papacy will fast gone.... I hope tell one more...so writing..teacher...if,if Lord will choose Eminence Cardinal Eijk,Archbishop of Utrecht,Netherlands...I think it's will be great too..I little know about him...he has many effort Protect to Our Orthodox Teachings...and he against to all Wrong Ideologies...so if,if Lord will choose to …More
@Kenjiro M. Yoshimori ...really,really hope this crazy Old man's papacy will fast gone.... I hope tell one more...so writing..teacher...if,if Lord will choose Eminence Cardinal Eijk,Archbishop of Utrecht,Netherlands...I think it's will be great too..I little know about him...he has many effort Protect to Our Orthodox Teachings...and he against to all Wrong Ideologies...so if,if Lord will choose to Eijk..will be great...I really hope it too..or you told me...maybe Cardinal Erdo will be great too...anyway really hope we will get real Pope Soon....fast time...if,if this crazy Old man much longer staying in Papacy...Holy Catholic church going to horrible way....really hope until finish this year...Bergoglio will gone...I many learning about your great opinion..Teacher...God bless always..take care...
John Fritz Logan
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Cardinal Eijk is my archbishop. He is a good man, but a traditional priest said he doesn't have the rihgt qualities to be pope. I hope for either Erdo, Ranjith or Sarah.
Clement Jaeho Chung
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@John Fritz Logan wow...are you staying in Utrecht in Netherlands??? very nice...so do you think if,if Eminence Cardinal Eijk will get to Papacy...maybe not good??? I think possible...but I am sure..if,if Lord choose to Eijk...he is really,really better than This crazy Old Man....but you told too...if,if Lord will choose to Eminence Cardinal Erdo..Archbishop of Budapest Hungary...it's will be …More
@John Fritz Logan wow...are you staying in Utrecht in Netherlands??? very nice...so do you think if,if Eminence Cardinal Eijk will get to Papacy...maybe not good??? I think possible...but I am sure..if,if Lord choose to Eijk...he is really,really better than This crazy Old Man....but you told too...if,if Lord will choose to Eminence Cardinal Erdo..Archbishop of Budapest Hungary...it's will be excellent too!!! anyway...really,really hope this crazy Old Man,fake Pope Bergoglio's time is gone..fast time..I can't wait it....and you wrote...really hope..even though much later..but really hope before Eminence Cardinal Duka(Former Archbishop of Prage,Czech) lost participate to Conclave...I well don't know about him too..but little know..he is a member of Orthodox Cardinal,brave Cardinal....I am not sure...Bergoglio make so wrong man to Cardinals...so many wrong man support to wrong,dangerous Ideologies..so I really,really worry about another Bergoglian Pope..so we need much pray...Holy Ghost Help to us..so please we will get Orthodox Pope...always pray it...many talking sorry..but I hope asking..so writing..God bless always all Orthodox Catholic members...Holy Mary,all Angels and Saints..pray for us..Amen..take care...God bless always you and all your family,lovely people too....
John Fritz Logan
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@Clement Jaeho Chung Yes, I am part of the archdiocese of Utrecht.
Eijk becoming Pope seems far better than Tagle, Parolin, Zuppi, Grech, Turkson or even Ouellet. Just fear that out of the orthodox candidates, he'll have the least leadership qualities. Hence my preference for Erdo.
And indeed I also hope Bergoglio relinquishes the ministry he has usurped soon, preferrably beginning next year after …More
@Clement Jaeho Chung Yes, I am part of the archdiocese of Utrecht.
Eijk becoming Pope seems far better than Tagle, Parolin, Zuppi, Grech, Turkson or even Ouellet. Just fear that out of the orthodox candidates, he'll have the least leadership qualities. Hence my preference for Erdo.
And indeed I also hope Bergoglio relinquishes the ministry he has usurped soon, preferrably beginning next year after Maradagia turns 80, before Duka turns 80 on April 23 next year.
Francis has appointed a surprising number of orthodox cardinals. Specifically during this consistory.
Based on my counting there are likely 40-42 bad cardinals. Just short of a veto block.
Eijk becoming Pope seems far better than Tagle, Parolin, Zuppi, Grech, Turkson or even Ouellet. Just fear that out of the orthodox candidates, he'll have the least leadership qualities. Hence my preference for Erdo.
And indeed I also hope Bergoglio relinquishes the ministry he has usurped soon, preferrably beginning next year after Maradagia turns 80, before Duka turns 80 on April 23 next year.
Francis has appointed a surprising number of orthodox cardinals. Specifically during this consistory.
Based on my counting there are likely 40-42 bad cardinals. Just short of a veto block.
Clement Jaeho Chung
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@John Fritz Logan thanks for your opinion...wow...you are member of Archdiocese of Utrecht...so great..did you meet to Eminence Cardinal Eijk?? if you meet...very nice..I think even though not perfect..but he is a friendly..and many effort protect to our Orthodox teaching...it's really great...and I see...Eminence Cardinal Erdo(Archbishop of Budapest,Hungary)is better than Eijk...hmm....before..I …More
@John Fritz Logan thanks for your opinion...wow...you are member of Archdiocese of Utrecht...so great..did you meet to Eminence Cardinal Eijk?? if you meet...very nice..I think even though not perfect..but he is a friendly..and many effort protect to our Orthodox teaching...it's really great...and I see...Eminence Cardinal Erdo(Archbishop of Budapest,Hungary)is better than Eijk...hmm....before..I hope Eminence Cardinal Sarah..former Prefect of Discipline of the Sacraments...from Guinea..if,if Lord choose to him..he is a maybe first Black,African Pope...it's great..but he is a 77 years old...Erdo much younger than Sarah..so I hope Erdo will be get Papacy too...and yes..me too!! I really,really hope crazy Old man Bergoglio will fast gone...and really hope my former Archbihsop..former Archbishop of Seoul Korea...Cardianl Andrew Yeom soo jung will participate to Conclave soon...next year December..he will get 80 years old...so really hope before that time..Bergoglio gone...Cardinal Andrew has many fault...not perfect..but he strongly against to LGBT Ideologies..and indiscriminate Abortion...really close to Orthodox Cardinal...but now..now my Archbishop of Seoul...Archbishop Peter Chung Soon Taek...he is a almost Bergoglian...so he agree LGBT Ideologies...so horrible..I think Bergoglio destroying so so many diocese...changing to bishop...so it's normal..so sad...much pray..please Lord send to us Orthodox Pope..fast time...thanks for talking to you...God bless always you and all your family..lovely people..Holy Mary,all Angels and Saints..pray for us..Amen..
Clement Jaeho Chung
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@John Fritz Logan ah...I hope tell little more..sorry...do you know about Eminence Cardinal Duka(former Archbishop of Prague,Czech) too??? I told you...even though ..I well don't know about him too..but just little know..Cardinal Duka is a member of Orthodox Cardinal,brave Cardinal...if,if you know about Duka,have met with Duka..so great..jajaja...really hope Eminence Cardinal Duka participate to …More
@John Fritz Logan ah...I hope tell little more..sorry...do you know about Eminence Cardinal Duka(former Archbishop of Prague,Czech) too??? I told you...even though ..I well don't know about him too..but just little know..Cardinal Duka is a member of Orthodox Cardinal,brave Cardinal...if,if you know about Duka,have met with Duka..so great..jajaja...really hope Eminence Cardinal Duka participate to Conclave too!!! and do you think Bergoglio make Orthodox Cardinals this time??? I little know about some Orthodox Cardinal..this time...Eminence Cardinal Richard Baawobr(Bishop of Wa,Ghana)..and Eminence Cardinal Peter Okpaleke(Bishop of Ekulobia,Nigeria)..Eminence Cardinal Giorgio Marengo(from Italy,prefect of Mogolia)..I heard they against to LGBT Ideologies,Indiscrimiate Abortion...another..not sure..do you know anothers?? hmm..and my Opinion...Orthodox Catholic,Christian People are must,must saying about Wrong Cardinals can't participate to Conclave!!! if,if Cardinals agree with LGBT Ideologies,Indiscriminate Abortion....this members are can't..can't participate to Conclave!!! like Cupich,Tobin,McElory,Marx,Hollerich....if,if this wrong groups can't participate to Conclave..get to Orthodox Pope much easy..I am sure....really hope it..and pray to the Lord..many talking sorry..take care^^ God bless again...
John Fritz Logan
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@Clement Jaeho Chung
I haven't met Cardinal Duka unfortunately. I just read about how he recently criticised Cardinal Marx for his anti-Benedict XVI report. He has criticised mass immigration and newwaysministry.
Baawobr from Ghana has indeed supported anti-sodomy laws.
Same with Goh from Singapore who has also supported Courage. He has spoken off being pastoral and understanding towards LGBT, but …More
@Clement Jaeho Chung
I haven't met Cardinal Duka unfortunately. I just read about how he recently criticised Cardinal Marx for his anti-Benedict XVI report. He has criticised mass immigration and newwaysministry.
Baawobr from Ghana has indeed supported anti-sodomy laws.
Same with Goh from Singapore who has also supported Courage. He has spoken off being pastoral and understanding towards LGBT, but he doesn't believe they are born that way, has strongly opposed gay marriage and his being pastoral again involves supporting Courage.
Marengo has supported exorcisms, opposed Shamanism and spoken of devotion to our Lady and the Eucharist as useful against demonic Shamanism.
Of Okpaleke, I read that he was supported by Cardinal Arinze who was one of the cardinals to organise that fraternal correction of the German bishops.
Carmo da Silva from East Timor has spoken out against LGBT promotion, after being designated.
You Heung-sik from South Korea defended celibacy during the youth synod, but he was positive about the Vatican China agreement back in 2018, after meeting 2 Chinese bishops who were allowed to attend, one previously appointed by Benedict XVI...
Thankfully that group doesn't seem to have a 1/3+1 veto block yet.
I don't mind the talkng, hope this response helped. Will try to respond to other points later.
I haven't met Cardinal Duka unfortunately. I just read about how he recently criticised Cardinal Marx for his anti-Benedict XVI report. He has criticised mass immigration and newwaysministry.
Baawobr from Ghana has indeed supported anti-sodomy laws.
Same with Goh from Singapore who has also supported Courage. He has spoken off being pastoral and understanding towards LGBT, but he doesn't believe they are born that way, has strongly opposed gay marriage and his being pastoral again involves supporting Courage.
Marengo has supported exorcisms, opposed Shamanism and spoken of devotion to our Lady and the Eucharist as useful against demonic Shamanism.
Of Okpaleke, I read that he was supported by Cardinal Arinze who was one of the cardinals to organise that fraternal correction of the German bishops.
Carmo da Silva from East Timor has spoken out against LGBT promotion, after being designated.
You Heung-sik from South Korea defended celibacy during the youth synod, but he was positive about the Vatican China agreement back in 2018, after meeting 2 Chinese bishops who were allowed to attend, one previously appointed by Benedict XVI...
Thankfully that group doesn't seem to have a 1/3+1 veto block yet.
I don't mind the talkng, hope this response helped. Will try to respond to other points later.
Clement Jaeho Chung
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@John Fritz Logan thanks for your kind message...really emotion..I learning a lot..really thank you for your comment...if you are annoying sorry..but I hope one more tell..so writing again..sorry...did you meet to Eminence Cardinal Eijk?? if you meet...very nice..I think even though not perfect..but he is a friendly..and many effort protect to our Orthodox teaching...it's really great.. even though …More
@John Fritz Logan thanks for your kind message...really emotion..I learning a lot..really thank you for your comment...if you are annoying sorry..but I hope one more tell..so writing again..sorry...did you meet to Eminence Cardinal Eijk?? if you meet...very nice..I think even though not perfect..but he is a friendly..and many effort protect to our Orthodox teaching...it's really great.. even though not perfect..but I deeply respect to him..and support him...I think you are same too...and thanks for some talking about this time appointed Cardinals position...I know little about Cardinal Lazarus You Heung-sik...he was former bishop of Daejon in Korea....I think he is a not so much close to Orthodox Cardinal..he always saying..love Bergoglio,respect to Bergoglio...so I don't believe,trust him so much..not bad..but not good...and I saw your opinion about Synod...Poland and Lithuania,many East European countries effort to protect our Orthodox Teachings...I think Many area of African church are same..some Asian countries,Latin American countries..and orthodox diocese in USA,Europe..another areas..their voice are true...I really worry..Bergoglio will remove to this area's great,brave voice...so much hope about fast gone....many talking sorry...reall thanks again..and God bless always you and all your family...lovely people..take care^^
Clement Jaeho Chung
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@John Fritz Logan I hope one more tell...so tell again..sorry....my opinion...it's very hard..but we must saying about dethronement to Bergoglio!!! I know..it's very hard...not easy...but,but Great Saint..Jesuit Cardinal Belarmine said..if,if Pope is going to wrong way...he lost Papacy!!!! I strongly agree!!!! we don't need anymore to this old Caligula!!! just pray for Bergoglio's repentance??? …More
@John Fritz Logan I hope one more tell...so tell again..sorry....my opinion...it's very hard..but we must saying about dethronement to Bergoglio!!! I know..it's very hard...not easy...but,but Great Saint..Jesuit Cardinal Belarmine said..if,if Pope is going to wrong way...he lost Papacy!!!! I strongly agree!!!! we don't need anymore to this old Caligula!!! just pray for Bergoglio's repentance??? Bergoglio's repentance is resign,step down to Papacy!!! really hope we will see...if,if he dose not have resign,or this old man not die fast time...if,if just pray for Pope Francis,loyalty to Pope...I think this is a Gaslighting...we must,must fight to Bergoglio and all Bergoglian....I really want not anymore this type of Pope...no anymore Francis II...this type will never get papacy again...main stream Media said...Cardinals will choose to Another Bergoglio..but I thinking your opinion..maybe they will choose Orthodox Pope...really hope it...many talking sorry...really hope brave,Orthodox Cardinals will remove to this crazy old man....
John Fritz Logan
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@Clement Jaeho Chung Yes, I have met Cardinal Eijk a few times. First 2 o 3 times quite shortly after my baptism. In 2014.
I spoke him very shortly one time later but barely count that. A few months ago I was able to quickly tell him that I wanted to give him an envelop. He instructed me to give it to his assistant who was next to him,
Regarding Lazarus You Heung-Sik, he indeed publically acts …More
@Clement Jaeho Chung Yes, I have met Cardinal Eijk a few times. First 2 o 3 times quite shortly after my baptism. In 2014.
I spoke him very shortly one time later but barely count that. A few months ago I was able to quickly tell him that I wanted to give him an envelop. He instructed me to give it to his assistant who was next to him,
Regarding Lazarus You Heung-Sik, he indeed publically acts respectful of Francis but not really with regards to controversies with orthodox cardinals like the thing with the dubia.
Thank you for your blessings and support. I wasn't annoyed, I can assure you. I was moved.
I spoke him very shortly one time later but barely count that. A few months ago I was able to quickly tell him that I wanted to give him an envelop. He instructed me to give it to his assistant who was next to him,
Regarding Lazarus You Heung-Sik, he indeed publically acts respectful of Francis but not really with regards to controversies with orthodox cardinals like the thing with the dubia.
Thank you for your blessings and support. I wasn't annoyed, I can assure you. I was moved.