Tesa
"Traditiones Custodes" suppresses the Anglican Ordinariate. "The liturgical books promulgated by Saint Paul VI and Saint John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, are the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite"
V.R.S.
Calm down. Ultraviolet is just another "Tradition Custodian". The "tradition" dating back to the 1960's of course.
laurelmarycecilia
Ultraviolet, I get it, Bergolio issues a decree that wasn't needed because it's been practice anyway. Yes, yes of course, nothing to see here !

pssst I gotta a bridge in...........
Ultraviolet
I wish you DID get it. The fact is a number of Bishops defied Summorum Pontificum, forbade priests from publicly celebrating the Latin Mass and nothing happened to them. That's the way their diocese worked during Benedict XVI's papacy after Summorum Pontificum and continued to work under Francis.

Francis decree legitimizes the status quo. It's like his changing Canon Law to allow female altar …More
I wish you DID get it. The fact is a number of Bishops defied Summorum Pontificum, forbade priests from publicly celebrating the Latin Mass and nothing happened to them. That's the way their diocese worked during Benedict XVI's papacy after Summorum Pontificum and continued to work under Francis.

Francis decree legitimizes the status quo. It's like his changing Canon Law to allow female altar servers. Novus Ordo parishes have had them for years already? Francis legitimized the practice but he hasn't changed the fact you won't find one at a TLM parish.

The Novus Ordo Bishops who hate the Latin Mass will continue to forbid it as they always have. The bishops who tolerate or even approve of it for one reason or another will continue to do so.

If you wish to argue otherwise, you'd better start showing some hard examples. Otherwise your argument just took a flying jump over the railing of your bridge.
Ultraviolet
...and all this decree does is authorize what has always been unofficial practice literally since Benedict XVI first issued Summorum Pontificum. Some bishops forbade Latin Masses in open defiance of the decree and suffered zero reprimands for doing so. Priests obeyed their bishop's wishes, Summorum Pontificum notwithstanding, or suffered his administrative wrath.

The bishops who already allow…More
...and all this decree does is authorize what has always been unofficial practice literally since Benedict XVI first issued Summorum Pontificum. Some bishops forbade Latin Masses in open defiance of the decree and suffered zero reprimands for doing so. Priests obeyed their bishop's wishes, Summorum Pontificum notwithstanding, or suffered his administrative wrath.

The bishops who already allow or even encourage Latin Mass will go on doing so. Even a big "shocker" like "In these celebrations the readings are proclaimed in the vernacular language." isn't anything new. The readings are given in Latin as part of the formal Latin Liturgy and then, at least at all the northeastern USA TLM Masses I've attended, re-read in the vernacular directly before the priest's sermon/ homily.

So, in practice, this isn't changing anything.
Ultraviolet
That isn't how "schism" works in The Catholic Church, @Knights4Christ Brother Knight needs to read his Canon Law 751. ;-)
John A Cassani
In many ways, time will tell, particularly with public Masses, but I expect things to get much worse. In the time before Benedict XVI fled for fear of the wolves, in my liberal archdiocese, if a pastor of a parish authorized a traditional Mass, he did so without fear of official reprisal. No one told him to stop, even if many of his brother priests would talk behind his back. This will not be …More
In many ways, time will tell, particularly with public Masses, but I expect things to get much worse. In the time before Benedict XVI fled for fear of the wolves, in my liberal archdiocese, if a pastor of a parish authorized a traditional Mass, he did so without fear of official reprisal. No one told him to stop, even if many of his brother priests would talk behind his back. This will not be tolerated anymore, and I suspect that the few regular Latin Masses will be reduced. Summorum Pontificum allowed for priests to say the Old Rite in private, which means that if you offered a private Mass, at a side altar, no one could stop you. Also, any member of the faithful who happened to be in church could come to the Mass. Now, any priest who has said the Old Rite of Mass has to petition to be able to keep “enjoying this faculty.”Summorum Pontificum granted rights to priests, and this act of cruelty takes them away. It would appear that FSSP and ICKSP seminarians are going to, individually, need to get permission to even be able to celebrate the Mass that was the whole reason they even considered becoming priests. There are a lot of unanswered questions, to be sure, as this document is very sloppy, but, before yesterday, the de iure situation of Trads in the Church was pretty good, even if the de facto situation was murkier. Now, all rights are gone in this respect, and everyone has to rely on the benevolence of bishops, and that is not encouraging at all.
Ultraviolet
I'm a pessimist as well, but also a realist. @John A Cassani The TLM is a money-maker and many bishops owe their allegience to the quarterly financial report before the Word of God.

True, the hard-core Novus Ordo ideologues would gladly see every church in their diocese close for lack of attendance before they'd allow the TLM, and many of them will see just that.

But that puts them at odds …More
I'm a pessimist as well, but also a realist. @John A Cassani The TLM is a money-maker and many bishops owe their allegience to the quarterly financial report before the Word of God.

True, the hard-core Novus Ordo ideologues would gladly see every church in their diocese close for lack of attendance before they'd allow the TLM, and many of them will see just that.

But that puts them at odds with their own superiors who also owe their allegiance to the accountant's balance sheets before Scripture. Good and bad are defined in terms of profit, not ideology.

"if a pastor of a parish authorized a traditional Mass, he did so without fear of official reprisal. No one told him to stop, even if many of his brother priests would talk behind his back."

I wonder about that. Bishops have a wide range of "unofficial" reprisals they can use against a recalcitrant priest and that goes well beyond just his fellow priests gossipping about him.

"This will not be tolerated anymore, and I suspect that the few regular Latin Masses will be reduced."

...only in diocese where the Bishop puts his hatred of the TLM before his love of money. Ironically enough, in this case Mammon is The Church's best friend. The Creed is Greed.

"which means that if you offered a private Mass, at a side altar, no one could stop you."

I suspect "private Masses" will return as they already did during the Covid lockdowns. Pssst.... John Cassani sent me. ;-)

"Now, any priest who has said the Old Rite of Mass has to petition to be able to keep “enjoying this faculty.”

True, but the priests who've been saying the traditional Mass in public have already been doing so with their Bishop's approval, not in spite of his disapproval. Those guys wield a lot of clout and much of it isn't "legal" or even set down on paper.

"It would appear that FSSP and ICKSP seminarians are going to, individually, need to get permission to even be able to celebrate the Mass that was the whole reason they even considered becoming priests."

Very true. However... the FSSP at least are invited by Bishops to celebrate the Mass in this parish or that one. Soooo... guess what happens? Father FSSP writes to His Excellency for approval and it's granted. Or His Excellency, if he's been following developments, has already contacted the priest and granted his approval. Seminarians "celebrate the Mass"? Without being ordained? You sure about that, amigo? ;-)

Why am I so confident Francis' decree is a non-issue?

Because in about twelve hours I'm going to a Mass celebrated by an FSSP priest and it's on, my man! :D

I checked the parish website, I checked with a few of the Knights Of Columbus who are the ushers, I even checked with the parish secretary (who's been gettting BOMBED with calls).

El Francesco's nasty Motu Proprio hasn't changed a thing because in this diocese, the Bishop is a staunch supporter of the TLM.

He isn't the only one. There's a network of bishops like this and they're the ones who ordain FSSP priests. ;-)
Knights4Christ
With this fact the Schism of Bergoglio is evidenced since the Church infallibly declared in the Dogmatic Council of Trent that the Latitn Mass is the Official Mass of the Catholic Church until the END of time. Bergoglio has no authority to unleash what Pope St. Pius V has already bound in Heaven. In defying this dogmatic council Bergoglio stands OUTSIDE of the Holy Catholic Church. The Church …More
With this fact the Schism of Bergoglio is evidenced since the Church infallibly declared in the Dogmatic Council of Trent that the Latitn Mass is the Official Mass of the Catholic Church until the END of time. Bergoglio has no authority to unleash what Pope St. Pius V has already bound in Heaven. In defying this dogmatic council Bergoglio stands OUTSIDE of the Holy Catholic Church. The Church also teaches that defying the Truth revealed by the Church is a sin of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
michael f
Malachi Martin got it right in book Wind swept house a most read for traditional Catholics.
Sp . .
A Noble Jesuit
V.R.S.
Soon postconciliar seminaries will be empty. The key is new Catholic seminaries. Then the "Church of the New Advent" will die out with women in the chancels of wide open churches.
Ave Crux
There are five (5) other Rites in the Catholic Church besides the Latin Rite. Why is it that these other ancient Rites were never considered to cause "division", but rather to "beautify" the Church's worship with their varied and ancient Traditions?

It is only because those who adhere to the Traditional Catholic Mass in the Latin Rite represent a lack of surrender to the Modernism which …More
There are five (5) other Rites in the Catholic Church besides the Latin Rite. Why is it that these other ancient Rites were never considered to cause "division", but rather to "beautify" the Church's worship with their varied and ancient Traditions?

It is only because those who adhere to the Traditional Catholic Mass in the Latin Rite represent a lack of surrender to the Modernism which occasioned the rupture caused by the destruction of our ancient Rite, and the forced imposition of a Protestantized Rite on the faithful, without warning and without mercy.

The emptying of seminaries and convents which followed that liturgical rupture, the widespread loss of the integral Faith among "Novus Ordo Catholics" -- as attested to by studies/surveys which reveal the astonishing difference in the beliefs and adherence to the Church's moral laws which exists between "Traditional" and "Novus Ordo" Catholics (see below) -- all of this makes clear that the rupture caused by the New Mass following Vatican II did nothing to strengthen the Faith or the souls of Catholics.

And now they want to destroy the blossoming resurgence of the vital, life-giving ancient Traditional Liturgy because it interferes with the auto-demolition of the Church at the hands of Modernism.
Carmine3
The pure vindictive spite of these diabolical minions is shown by the choice of title. Utter satanic cynicism.
Aaron-Jozef
Beminde gelovigen.
Geen bisschop die nu nog durft om toestemming te geven aan een priester om de Tridentijnse Heilige Mis op te dragen.
Paus Franciscus is begonnen met zijn geloofs vervolging, de Tridentijnse Rooms Katholieken worden binnen de Rooms Katholieke kerk vervolgd om hun geloof. Iedere rechtsstaat in Europa en ook de Europese wetgeving beloofd aan iedere inwoner de vrijheid van ieder …More
Beminde gelovigen.
Geen bisschop die nu nog durft om toestemming te geven aan een priester om de Tridentijnse Heilige Mis op te dragen.
Paus Franciscus is begonnen met zijn geloofs vervolging, de Tridentijnse Rooms Katholieken worden binnen de Rooms Katholieke kerk vervolgd om hun geloof. Iedere rechtsstaat in Europa en ook de Europese wetgeving beloofd aan iedere inwoner de vrijheid van ieder geloof. Paus Franciscus handelt dus in strijd met de Europese
wetgeving. Paus Franciscus kan als dictator van Vaticaanstad een bepaald geloof in Vaticaanstad verbieden, maar niet in de rest van Europa. In Europa worden de universele rechten van de mens gerespecteerd.
De Traditionele Rooms Katholieken kunnen nu alleen nog een eigen nieuwe Tridentijnse Rooms Katholieke kerk oprichten. Binnen de Rooms Katholieke kerk is geen plaats meer voor de Traditionele Rooms Katholieken. Maar wees niet bevreesd, de moderne Rooms Katholieke kerk, met paus Franciscus als hoofd, zal geen toekomst meer hebben. De groep Tridentijnse Rooms Katholieken zal sterk groeien en de groep moderne Katholieken zal binnen twintig jaar uitsterven. De gelovigen die het Universele Rooms Katholieke geloof belijden en de Nieuwe Tridentijnse Rooms Katholieke kerk gaan oprichten zullen zelfstandig verder moeten en over twintig tot dertig jaar terugkeren, met haarTridentijnse Heilige Mis, naar de leeggelopen Rooms Katholieke kerk.
Lumen Praetorius
“Those therefore who after the manner of wicked heretics dare to set aside Ecclesiastical Traditions, and to invent any kind of novelty, or to reject any of those things entrusted to the Church, or who wrongfully and outrageously devise the destruction of any of those Traditions enshrined in the Catholic Church, are to be punished thus: if they are bishops, we order them to be deposed; but if …More
“Those therefore who after the manner of wicked heretics dare to set aside Ecclesiastical Traditions, and to invent any kind of novelty, or to reject any of those things entrusted to the Church, or who wrongfully and outrageously devise the destruction of any of those Traditions enshrined in the Catholic Church, are to be punished thus: if they are bishops, we order them to be deposed; but if they are monks or lay persons, we command them to be excluded from the community.”
Second Council of Nicaea 787 A.D.
iwirawan
What's next? Abomination be introduced to NO?
beth alice arrow
The persecution begins!!!
V.R.S.
It's not sarcasm. It's just a perversion.
Actually A Catholic
It is NO ACCIDENT that TODAY is the FEAST OF OL OF MT CARMEL and the BEGINNING OF 40 DAYS OF TRADITIONAL PRAYERS OF REPARATION!

The QUARANTINE of ST LOUIS starts TODAY to OFFER REPARATION to GOD!

The timing here is important!

Let God arise and let His enemies be scattered, let all those that hate Him flee before His Face!

Covert us Oh God, and show us Thy Face and we shall be save…More
It is NO ACCIDENT that TODAY is the FEAST OF OL OF MT CARMEL and the BEGINNING OF 40 DAYS OF TRADITIONAL PRAYERS OF REPARATION!

The QUARANTINE of ST LOUIS starts TODAY to OFFER REPARATION to GOD!

The timing here is important!

Let God arise and let His enemies be scattered, let all those that hate Him flee before His Face!

Covert us Oh God, and show us Thy Face and we shall be saved!

May the thrice Holy Name of God overthrow all their plans!

QUARANTINE HERE:

thirdorderofsaintdominic.org/Quarantine of St Louis.html
GTVisrockin
Amen!
Tree
Giving the power over liturgy to bishops? The thing is, this new motu proprio restricts bishops' authority in their own dioceses by dictating precisely how they are to allow implementation of the TLM of they choose to do so. It also forbids bishops from permitting new TLM parishes in their dioceses.
DefendTruth
So basically, diocesan TLM people, who refused to go to the SSPX because of its dubious status and disobedient culture, who kept funding their dioceses and defending the pope and their bishop, have been rewarded with a big shove toward irregularity and schism.
V.R.S.
Basically, the fiction and hypocrisy resulting from SP is ending.

PS I do not mean here these real & sincere lunatics who firmly and genuinely believe that the traditional Roman Rite and NOM are two forms of the same rite, lex orandi & credendi and who want to be enriched by sermons using all the new theology starting from Unitatis redintegratio, Lumen gentium and Nostra aetate and ending with …More
Basically, the fiction and hypocrisy resulting from SP is ending.

PS I do not mean here these real & sincere lunatics who firmly and genuinely believe that the traditional Roman Rite and NOM are two forms of the same rite, lex orandi & credendi and who want to be enriched by sermons using all the new theology starting from Unitatis redintegratio, Lumen gentium and Nostra aetate and ending with Evangelii Gaudium, Amoris Laetitia or Fratelli Tutti.
pgmgn
So basically, the diocesan TLM people who have been lied to so they wouldn't look at the SSPX for what it is--Catholic and currently holding an irregular canonical status within the Church--are finally receiving the fruits of said deception.

Irregularity is not schism.

Irregularity is what we're experiencing because those who hold Rome hostage have given entree to the world. This is why +Lefebv…More
So basically, the diocesan TLM people who have been lied to so they wouldn't look at the SSPX for what it is--Catholic and currently holding an irregular canonical status within the Church--are finally receiving the fruits of said deception.

Irregularity is not schism.

Irregularity is what we're experiencing because those who hold Rome hostage have given entree to the world. This is why +Lefebvfe knew he'd need bishops. And THIS is precisely why Rome never gave the FSSP the bishop that was promised to them.

The oft perpetuated excuse that the FSSP didn't really need their own bishop because they were small or fill-in-the-blank was precisely that. An excuse. With corral the sheep and extinguish them TLM at the end of the line.

Welcome to reality.
Ultraviolet
"Irregularity is not schism."

John Paul II said differently and he used the word schism. SSPX fans love pretending a legitimacy their own history and continued contempt for Papal authority refutes.

"This is why +Lefebvfe knew he'd need bishops."
...and when he broke Church Law by appointing them without approval, he placed himself outside The Church. John Paul II affirmed that as well.

This …More
"Irregularity is not schism."

John Paul II said differently and he used the word schism. SSPX fans love pretending a legitimacy their own history and continued contempt for Papal authority refutes.

"This is why +Lefebvfe knew he'd need bishops."
...and when he broke Church Law by appointing them without approval, he placed himself outside The Church. John Paul II affirmed that as well.

This is the Catholic Church. There's a chain of command and rules to follow.

"And THIS is precisely why Rome never gave the FSSP the bishop that was promised to them... "

...and THIS hasn't prevented the FSSP from finding sympathetic bishops aplenty who travel from all over the country to lawfully ordain their priests.

"With corral the sheep and extinguish them TLM at the end of the line."

Cool story, bro. Needs more of Saint Lefebvre riding Swiftwind, the magical unicorn at the head of the Heavenly Host. Pic related...

Of course he's a saint. Who needs an official canonization process anymore? Surely not the SSPX. ;-)
pgmgn
JPII can "say" all he likes that a certain action will be viewed as schism. But not even the Holy Father can create out of nothing. That's reserved to God alone unless you're convinced that JPII could turn water into wine or call wine into an empty goblet on his own steam.

Cool fantasy, Bro, that would be you hugging up to rainbow unicorns and your own disconnect with reality. And THIS, whatever…More
JPII can "say" all he likes that a certain action will be viewed as schism. But not even the Holy Father can create out of nothing. That's reserved to God alone unless you're convinced that JPII could turn water into wine or call wine into an empty goblet on his own steam.

Cool fantasy, Bro, that would be you hugging up to rainbow unicorns and your own disconnect with reality. And THIS, whatever this is, seems to be where the rubber is meeting the road for the FSSP regardless of "sympathetic" bishops.

Point is, your emotional state, Ultraviolet, or fearing schism doesn't create schism. But JP II was absolutely correct in that +Lefebvre's actions would be 'viewed' as schismatic. Why? Because nutters like yourself refuse to use a dictionary and prefer to invent My Little Pony spinoffs in your mom's basement.

Fact: Rome promised the FSSP a bishop, their own bishop, which never came. It was a false promise intended to placate those like yourself who, thumb stuck in mouth, were convinced that doing nothing was the only way to fly.

At least the charade of false sympathy is out the door now. About time.
Ultraviolet
"But not even the Holy Father can create out of nothing."

He didn't, dummy. Abp. Lefebvre gave him miles of rope for the hanging. Nice to see you carefully crept back months afterwards, without notice. I've noticed this is a tactic of yours, like any other little rat leaving its spoor.

"Cool fantasy, Bro, that would be you hugging up to rainbow unicorns and your own disconnect with reality."

More
"But not even the Holy Father can create out of nothing."

He didn't, dummy. Abp. Lefebvre gave him miles of rope for the hanging. Nice to see you carefully crept back months afterwards, without notice. I've noticed this is a tactic of yours, like any other little rat leaving its spoor.

"Cool fantasy, Bro, that would be you hugging up to rainbow unicorns and your own disconnect with reality."

Get back to me when you're done reading "Ecclesia Dei," Bro. Wait another two months before replying so maybe I won't notice, next time.

"Point is, your emotional state, Ultraviolet, or fearing schism doesn't create schism."

Schism isn't for me to decide, It's for The Church and The Church, in this case, explicitly referred to Abp. Lefebvre's movement as such. As for our respective emotional states, you can go right on snuffling those hot, snotty tears of frustration because JP II slammed the proverbial door on your line of argument decades ago.

"But JP II was absolutely correct in that +Lefebvre's actions would be 'viewed' as schismatic." Why? Because nutters like yourself refuse to use a dictionary..."

JP II was absolutely correct in describing Abp. Lefebvre's actions as disobedience, a violation of Canon Law, and a "schismatic act". Why? Because that's what Abp. Lefebvre did and insisted on doing even after repeated warnings.

A dictionary isn't needed here. Only a quick review of the Apostolic Letter confirming the excommunication resulting from that disobedience and schismatic act. You're going to have to do better than "mom's basement," too. Ad Hominem shots don't work on me.

In your case, I find it reassuring you're just this dull-witted and unimaginative. It means that was the best you've got and your best just wasn't good enough.

Here's another fact, one I'm certain you'd rather ignore. The FSSP has an extensive network of traditionalist bishops who lawfully ordain their clergy. So your fact, while factual, is irrelevant.

Protip: That isn't a My Little Pony spin-off either. How fitting. You began with error and you ended with it, even on something trivial. Well done.
Advocata
One has to think someone was waiting for someone else to die first
Eva
An unjust law is not a binding law St Thomas Aquinas (ST I-II Q. 96 A)