"My dear fellow, as you pointed out to MMM, it matters not what terminology this Cardinal or that bishop uses, " @Carol HI made no such point and I'll thank you not to invent things I didn't write. What I actually stated was, "Bishops speak for themselves, they do not speak for the whole of the Catholic Church."
Dishonest SSPX tactics. Followed by this old, broken-toothed saw...
"the official actions of the Holy Father is our guide"Don't go there, hon. JP II formally confirmed the excommunication of Abp. Lefebvre and called his movement "the schism". That's
his official actions. BXVI granted the wrong-doers clemency and like so many unrepentent criminals, they and their supporters claim vindication. However, that isn't in any way what BXVI intended. Direct Quote:
--"In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers - even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty - do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church."--
That's
his official ruling.
"without having to renounce anything, the "excommunications" were lifted."The SSPX has a gift for re-writing history and by now I'm used to it..
;-) Not so, they had to
grovel a bit first as Benedict notes:
--"The remission of the excommunication has the same aim as that of the punishment: namely, to invite the four Bishops once more to return. This gesture was possible
once the interested parties had expressed their recognition in principle of the Pope and his authority as Pastor...."--
Of course what you're proving once again that mercy, while a Christian virtue, is
always abused by unrepentant criminals and their supporters.
JP II had the right of it. Confirm the expulsion of the schismatics and let them rot in the darkness outside The Church.
"Very strange things for the Vatican to do for "false bishops" would you not agree?"I would not. Benedict was a merciful Pope and his mercy has been shamelessly misused and misrepresented.
"As for His Grace, Archbishop Lefebvre, yes, he disobeyed the Pope."Concession noted. We are making progress.
:) Yes, we are! Since we agree on this point, Abp. Lefebvre was, then, in violation of the following Canon Laws:
--273: Clerics are bound by a special obligation to show reverence and obedience to the Supreme Pontiff and their own ordinary.--
--1382: A bishop who consecrates some one a bishop without a pontifical mandate and the person who receives the consecration from him incur a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See.--
...both of which further confirm the following applies:
--751: schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.--
"However, what you continually fail to acknowledge - God knows how - is that a revolution was underway undermining both the Holy Mass and the faith itself."I haven't failed to acknoweldge that. I
do refuse to acknowledge it's a valid reason to disobey the Pope and usurp his Papal authority.
"Where was the FSPP during that first wave of the revolution? She didn't exist."So? Many Latin-friendly clergy did exist and do exist. The SSPX loves to paint a false narrative that the only choice was between the Novus Ordo and themselves. That simply isn't true.
"So someone had to stand up and cry "No" to the humanist take-over."Abp. Lefebvre
did far more than that as Pope Paul VI angrily noted,
--"I hope to have before me a brother, a son, a friend. Unfortunately, the position you have taken is that of an antipope. What can I say? You have not allowed for any measure in your words, your actions, your behavior."--
and that defiant "stand up and cry'No' " as you so romantically re-write history, immediately turned into all sorts of cowardly snivelling from Abp. Lefebvre...
--Lefebvre insisted it was never his intention to attack the pope, and he admitted "perhaps there was something inappropriate in my words, my writings."--
He had a big mouth when it came to slagging the Pope, except when he was face to face with the man himself.
"His Grace believed he had no choice - it seemed at the time as if the whole world was throwing away the faith"You don't know what his Grace
believed because you're not a mind-reader., much less a necromancer.
;-) Second, let's remember Abp. Lefebvre abided by Vaticacn Council II for at least 25 years.
It wasn't "emergency" or "grave necessity" or "the whole world was throwing away the faith" that motivated Apb. Lefebvre to disobey a direct order from The Pope. That had been going on for a quarter of a century.
No, It was the same arrogant disregard for Papal authority Paul VI noted decades earlier.
Abp. Lefebvre didn't get what he wanted so he tried to bull his way past the Pope and do whatever he wanted. He misjudged his opposition and applied the law as it was written.
"their founders were ex-SSPX priests FORMED by Archbishop Lefebvre."...and many ex-Orthodox schismatics join The Catholic Church every year. Even so, the Orthodox are
still schismatics and it doesn't justify them
continuing in schism.
"Their traditionalism stems from his legacy."Hardly. Their traditionalism stems from all the centuries of Latin Mass predating Vatican Council II.
Like most worshipful Lefebvre fans, you're giving the man credit for things he doesn't deserve.
Abp. Lefebvre's
legacy is leading untold hundreds of traditionalist Catholics
out of The Church and
into schism. Benedict XVI may have lifted JP II's decree against Lefebvre and those false bishops. He did not do so for the rest of the SSPX, clergy and laity alike.
"I have to say UV, while I can understand you not agreeing with His Grace's actions, I do not understand your venom."Venom?
:D Darling, you should hang out on GTV more often. Truly... this isn't venom at all! I'm being civil to you, civil to the late (and for me, unlamented) archbishop. Don't worry, when my fangs come out and start dripping
venom,
you'll know it.
:)I fully acknowledge I am resolute on this issue, for theological reasons perfectly explained by Pope John Paul II:
--"Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church's law."--
That was never rescinded... not by Benedict XVI not by Francis. As I said, that Papal decree applies to
all SSPX clergy and laity today.
My motivation, what you choose to call venom, is a dedication to the truth.
SSPX proponents are like everyone else whose ideology is based on error, be it religious, social, or political.
They seek to
misrepresent the truth and make "converts" to their own falsehoods. Now that's bad enough when the issue is, say, climate change or homosexuality.
It's utterly
unconscionable when it comes to The Church and The Faith. The SSPX is in schism, they seek to misrepresent themselves as fully part of The Catholic Church. Like some fiendish pied pipers of "tradtionalism" they try to lead loyal, devout Catholics into that same state of error
Little wonder why a traditionalist
Catholic would take objection to that, eh?
"It's odd given the bigger picture and it's odd given how the Holy Father now wants to clamp back down on the Old Rite; the blindness in Rome continues..."Francis' fail is well-documented on GTV. A day doesn't go by without some new example and his successor-apparent, Cardinal Tagle will make Francis look like Benedict XVI by comparison. You heard it here first.
For all that, he's still the Pope and Catholic traditionalism will survive him without needing to lapse into Lefebvre's schism to do so.