"If we manage to show and live the totality of Catholicism in these respects, we may well hope that the schism of Mgr. Lefebvre will not last long." J. CARDINAL RATZINGER, Speech to the Bishops of Chile, 13 July 1988, trans. in Canonical Proposal of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter, Scranton, Privately Published, 1993, p. 64.
That is what Pope Benedict XVI noted
before he was Pope Benedict
@philosopherI
"Pope Benedict XVI, noted many times in his pontificate that the TLM was never abrogated..."Irrelevant to consecrating bishops without a Papal mandate, something Cardinal Ratzinger "noted many times" in letters directly to Abp. Lefebvre.
Again, you're trying to tap-dance between a non-issue and the actual disobedience.
By the way, When you type out a wall of text, you forfeit the right to complain about "saturation".
Likewise, your tailor-made questions are in themselves a dishonest dialectic designed to control the narrative.
You don't want the truth. That last question shows you know what it is already,
you just don't like it. Don't shoot the messenger for pointing it out.
s
"And, the "bad faith" accusation is an ad hominem par excellance."Wrong. I attacked your question on logical grounds. Calling you out on your motive wasn't a
substitute for doing so. Your accusation fails.
D for Doggie Steve D might not understand the difference or care care, he'll lick anyone's hand because for him it's "the enemy of my enemy" and nothing else.
"I could care less about winning an argument, but, I do want to know the truth about something in this case what is the exact nature of schism and do the SSPX fall into that category or not."Really? I saw your quest for the truth with Christopher Columbus allowing his men to rape the natives.
When you didn't like the truth, you went all the way down to questioning the translations of the primary source documents and when I could show a consensus, you demanded photo-scans of the originals.
You know how to hide behind self-serving academia while fatuously advancing how you "could care less about winning an argument"
You fraud. :P Narcissist or not, I'm honest about my motives. I
like winning, especially when I'm right.
But... just as a show of good faith, I'll take your self-serving mendacity at face value.
Here: This is why the SSPX is in schism.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1392When you can refute every single historical point raised and every canonical legal argument presented, get back to me.
"The SSPX does not have a seperate church structure- due to a dissagreement in Catholic doctrine- like the Orthodox, which is why they do not fall under the Pontifical Institute for Ecumenical Dialogue."It isn't "logic chopping" to note
you're repeating your same argument which is a fallacy of repetition. It isn't logic-chopping to point out I've already noted the point you just raised again, has no bearing on them being schismatics or not.
"the term submission only pertains to lawful or rightful submission and not submission to any arbitrary rant, rule, or whim of the Pope, or a directive that is harmful to the faith."Can 751 makes no such distinction. This is you piling on more of your entirely fabricated extra-legal and purely
subjective qualifications to excuse the SSPX from their schism. What you're displaying is more of your Lefebvrist sympathies and its inherently dishonest world-view as you did in your final second question.
"not submission to any arbitrary rant, rule, or whim of the Pope, or a directive that is harmful to the faith."Abp. Lefebvre was in direct violation of Canon Law. It wasn't an "arbitrary rnat, rule, or whim of the Pope". That's you re-writing history the way the SSPX fans usually do.
"There is nothing in the writings of Archbishop Lefebvre that denies the office of the pope (something the Orthodox do deny in their doctrines), nor his rightful authority- which is why the SSPX always include the pope in the prayers at mass."Lip-service in the literal sense of the pun.
:D
Denying the "office" of the pope and denying the pope's legal authority are two different things. Apb. Lefebvre didn't have the authority to judge if it was "rightful" or not, either.
Pope Paul VI didn't like those "writings" either and noted in his meeting with the man.
--"You said it and wrote it. (That) I would be a modernist pope. By applying an ecumenical council, I would betray the church. Do you understand that if this were so, I would have to resign and invite you to take my place and lead the church?... You told the whole world that the pope lacks the faith, does not believe, that he is a modernist and so on,"--
...and then Abp. Lefebvre started excusing his excoriating rhetoric with kind of soft-focus dance you're pulling here.
--Lefebvre insisted it was never his
intention to attack the pope, and he admitted "perhaps there was something inappropriate in my words, my writings."--
Get that. He attacks the pope with a list of accusations and then justifies doing so because attacking the pope wasn't his "intention".
Poor Paul VI. He can't read men's minds or souls any more than UV can but we both can recognize when a man's words and his actions brand him a liar.
"If the pope were to send a letter to the Russian Orthodox Patriarch commanding him to say an extra Hail Mary prayer after each mass, they would not feel compelled to comply, as they do not recognize his authority..."If the Pope were to send a letter to Abp. Lefebvre and the SSPX telling them not to consecrate bishops without authority. Quoting you, "they would not feel compelled to comply, as they do not recognize his authority."
...and that's your quote directly applied to historical fact.The SSPX are schismatics on just this point.
"...However, if the pope were to order the SSPX to do so, they would comply."Outright speculation on your part.
"But, a command to stop celebrating the TLM and begin praying the Novus Ordo is an illegitimate order that is an abuse of authority..."NONE of those points were why Abp. Lefebvre was excommunicated. NONE of those points factored into his movement being labelled a schism..
"SSPX priests are regulars at Fatima and Lourdes along with other Catholic priests and faithful from around the world."Tourism does not prove communion with the Catholic Church.
Now that's just being D for Dumb and the sort of thing Steve D for Doggie would yelp when he's gets swatted with a rolled up newpaper..
You're picking up some bad habits from your new pet, Philosopher.
...proving when you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas.
;-)