50 Priests, Scholars, Journalists Foster The Vatican II Debate
Open Letter to Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò and Bishop Athanasius Schneider (published first on LifeSiteNews.com) July 9, 2020 Your Excellencies: We the undersigned wish to express our sincere …More
Open Letter to Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò and Bishop Athanasius Schneider
(published first on LifeSiteNews.com)
July 9, 2020
Your Excellencies:
We the undersigned wish to express our sincere gratitude for your fortitude and care for souls during the ongoing crisis of Faith in the Catholic Church. Your public statements calling for an honest and open discussion of the Second Vatican Council and the dramatic changes in Catholic belief and practice that followed it have been a source of hope and consolation to many faithful Catholics. The event of the Second Vatican Council appears now more than fifty years after its completion to be unique in the history of the Church. Never before our time has an ecumenical council been followed by such a prolonged period of confusion, corruption, loss of faith, and humiliation for the Church of Christ.
Catholicism has distinguished itself from some false religions by its insistence that Man is a rational creature and that religious belief encourages …More
(published first on LifeSiteNews.com)
July 9, 2020
Your Excellencies:
We the undersigned wish to express our sincere gratitude for your fortitude and care for souls during the ongoing crisis of Faith in the Catholic Church. Your public statements calling for an honest and open discussion of the Second Vatican Council and the dramatic changes in Catholic belief and practice that followed it have been a source of hope and consolation to many faithful Catholics. The event of the Second Vatican Council appears now more than fifty years after its completion to be unique in the history of the Church. Never before our time has an ecumenical council been followed by such a prolonged period of confusion, corruption, loss of faith, and humiliation for the Church of Christ.
Catholicism has distinguished itself from some false religions by its insistence that Man is a rational creature and that religious belief encourages …More
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Hugh N. Cry
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It’s because of the “fruits” of VII that so many as you put it, “are living and dying without access to the sacraments and their Churches.” Can’t think of a better time... heck, we’ve been saying this all along.
F M Shyanguya
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“fruits” of VII
Herein your error.
Cf. The 16 Documents of the Second Vatican Council
Show me wherein they say in 2020 we will deny the faithful access to the Sacraments and shutter the Churches?!
So frustrating to have a meaningful discussion especially with the (self-styled) Trad circles because their position is a limited to a few sound bites.More
“fruits” of VII
Herein your error.
Cf. The 16 Documents of the Second Vatican Council
Show me wherein they say in 2020 we will deny the faithful access to the Sacraments and shutter the Churches?!
So frustrating to have a meaningful discussion especially with the (self-styled) Trad circles because their position is a limited to a few sound bites.
Herein your error.
Cf. The 16 Documents of the Second Vatican Council
Show me wherein they say in 2020 we will deny the faithful access to the Sacraments and shutter the Churches?!
So frustrating to have a meaningful discussion especially with the (self-styled) Trad circles because their position is a limited to a few sound bites.
Hugh N. Cry
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You aren’t going to find it. It’s the magisterium and clergy that interpreted the ambiguities. Fruits you ask? You must mean the vocation boom, full schools and churches, the buying of property vs selling/closing institutions? In regards to present, where have you been for the past four months? There still are churches not open. Furthermore, in regards to what happened after VII, I recall the years …More
You aren’t going to find it. It’s the magisterium and clergy that interpreted the ambiguities. Fruits you ask? You must mean the vocation boom, full schools and churches, the buying of property vs selling/closing institutions? In regards to present, where have you been for the past four months? There still are churches not open. Furthermore, in regards to what happened after VII, I recall the years one needed a ticket to go to a Latin Mass, refused in diocese, chased out, etc. I’ve lived through these times. I rest my case.
Ultraviolet
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"So frustrating to have a meaningful discussion especially with the (self-styled) Trad circles because their position is a limited to a few sound bites." -and yet here you stay, @F M Shyanguya
There's a direct parallel to your endless criticisms against this country. Strange you haven't packed up and moved somewhere else. If you could move to one foreign land, it should be just as straight-forward …More
"So frustrating to have a meaningful discussion especially with the (self-styled) Trad circles because their position is a limited to a few sound bites." -and yet here you stay, @F M Shyanguya
There's a direct parallel to your endless criticisms against this country. Strange you haven't packed up and moved somewhere else. If you could move to one foreign land, it should be just as straight-forward for you to do so again.
Similarly, if the users on GTV aren't meeting your needs for "meaningful discussion" and conversations here are oh, "so frustrating", then your time would be much better spent elsewhere.
There are plenty of other Catholic-themed venues online for you to grace with your regular complaints about America and non-stop reposts of the garbage that catches your fancy on Twitter.
There's a direct parallel to your endless criticisms against this country. Strange you haven't packed up and moved somewhere else. If you could move to one foreign land, it should be just as straight-forward for you to do so again.
Similarly, if the users on GTV aren't meeting your needs for "meaningful discussion" and conversations here are oh, "so frustrating", then your time would be much better spent elsewhere.
There are plenty of other Catholic-themed venues online for you to grace with your regular complaints about America and non-stop reposts of the garbage that catches your fancy on Twitter.
VII Council was not dogmatic, but more pastoral as many have said on this forum. However, the glaring problem was the dismantling of the liturgy while this council was ongoing. I even know some "traditional priests" who have no problem offering the Novus Ordo and TLM. Why did you not object to the radical changes while the Council was ongoing?
F M Shyanguya
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Is this really a priority when Catholics are currently living and dying without access to the sacraments and their Churches? And when now even their basic material needs are being taken away?
“We are grateful for your calls for an open and honest debate about the truth of what happened at Vatican II and whether the Council and its implementation contain errors or aspects that favor errors or harm …More
Is this really a priority when Catholics are currently living and dying without access to the sacraments and their Churches? And when now even their basic material needs are being taken away?
“We are grateful for your calls for an open and honest debate about the truth of what happened at Vatican II and whether the Council and its implementation contain errors or aspects that favor errors or harm the Faith. Such a debate cannot start from a conclusion that the Second Vatican Council as a whole and in its parts is per se in continuity with Tradition. “
Non- starter from the Church’s position and Church Tradition and Teaching which hold that Ecumenical Councils with papal approbation are infallible in their decrees.
How honest and open and sincere are they who call for an honest and open debate and discussion yet they themselves place preconditions to steer the debate and discussions in a particular direction?
“We are grateful for your calls for an open and honest debate about the truth of what happened at Vatican II and whether the Council and its implementation contain errors or aspects that favor errors or harm the Faith. Such a debate cannot start from a conclusion that the Second Vatican Council as a whole and in its parts is per se in continuity with Tradition. “
Non- starter from the Church’s position and Church Tradition and Teaching which hold that Ecumenical Councils with papal approbation are infallible in their decrees.
How honest and open and sincere are they who call for an honest and open debate and discussion yet they themselves place preconditions to steer the debate and discussions in a particular direction?
philosopher
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@F M Shyanguya And, what infallible decrees did Vat 2 make that is binding on a Catholic that was not binding before the Council? Are there new ones now required? If so, please list them.
F M Shyanguya
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Infallible does not mean “binding on a Catholic”.
In general, it means “exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure.”
But yes, [see below] “From the earliest times they who rejected the decisions of councils were themselves rejected by the Church.” Please note that SSPX has no canonical status within the Church and shuddering that Abp Lefebvre died excommunicated from the Church …More
Infallible does not mean “binding on a Catholic”.
In general, it means “exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure.”
But yes, [see below] “From the earliest times they who rejected the decisions of councils were themselves rejected by the Church.” Please note that SSPX has no canonical status within the Church and shuddering that Abp Lefebvre died excommunicated from the Church. This is no light or small matter. [cf Cardinal Müller differs with Bishop Fellay, says SSPX must embrace Vatican II teachings and in 2012]
Cf Catholic Encyclopedia > General Councils
In general, it means “exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure.”
But yes, [see below] “From the earliest times they who rejected the decisions of councils were themselves rejected by the Church.” Please note that SSPX has no canonical status within the Church and shuddering that Abp Lefebvre died excommunicated from the Church. This is no light or small matter. [cf Cardinal Müller differs with Bishop Fellay, says SSPX must embrace Vatican II teachings and in 2012]
Cf Catholic Encyclopedia > General Councils
F M Shyanguya
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Cf. BALTIMORE CATECHISM #3 > LESSON 12 - ON THE ATTRIBUTES AND MARKS OF THE CHURCH (Why this Catechism was chosen for the argument here ought to be obvious.)
Cf also Posted on June 24, 2017 A Primer on the Infallibility of the Catholic ChurchMore
Cf. BALTIMORE CATECHISM #3 > LESSON 12 - ON THE ATTRIBUTES AND MARKS OF THE CHURCH (Why this Catechism was chosen for the argument here ought to be obvious.)
Cf also Posted on June 24, 2017 A Primer on the Infallibility of the Catholic Church
Cf also Posted on June 24, 2017 A Primer on the Infallibility of the Catholic Church
LionsOnTheBeach
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VII is the only council in history which by its own decree does not define anything dogmatically. The Council texts are Ordinary Magisterium, not Extraordinary Magisterium.
Q. 530 of Baltimore Catechism written at a time when all councils up to that point had defined doctrine dogmaticallyMore
VII is the only council in history which by its own decree does not define anything dogmatically. The Council texts are Ordinary Magisterium, not Extraordinary Magisterium.
Q. 530 of Baltimore Catechism written at a time when all councils up to that point had defined doctrine dogmatically
Q. 530 of Baltimore Catechism written at a time when all councils up to that point had defined doctrine dogmatically
F M Shyanguya
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1) Defining Dogma is one thing that General [Ecumenical] Council can do but it is not the only thing it does.
Cf Posted on June 25, 2017 Church Terms: doctrine, dogma, infallible, irreformable
2) On infallibility of Church Ecumenical Council, same teaching in the 1992 Catechism, a fruit of the VII Council.More
1) Defining Dogma is one thing that General [Ecumenical] Council can do but it is not the only thing it does.
Cf Posted on June 25, 2017 Church Terms: doctrine, dogma, infallible, irreformable
2) On infallibility of Church Ecumenical Council, same teaching in the 1992 Catechism, a fruit of the VII Council.
Cf Posted on June 25, 2017 Church Terms: doctrine, dogma, infallible, irreformable
2) On infallibility of Church Ecumenical Council, same teaching in the 1992 Catechism, a fruit of the VII Council.
philosopher
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@F M Shyanguya ok but what new decisions are now required to be Catholic? Does it prevent me from participating in the Traditional Latin Mass? Does it require that I must attend the Novus Ordo mass? The Vat 2 document does decree that Latin and Gregorian chant is to be given pride of place and is to be retained, yet, why do most Novus Ordo masses refuse to obey this decision or rather decree?
I …More
@F M Shyanguya ok but what new decisions are now required to be Catholic? Does it prevent me from participating in the Traditional Latin Mass? Does it require that I must attend the Novus Ordo mass? The Vat 2 document does decree that Latin and Gregorian chant is to be given pride of place and is to be retained, yet, why do most Novus Ordo masses refuse to obey this decision or rather decree?
I never mentioned the SSPX, but they do have the lowest level of canonical status, which is the association level. They are a Catholic association recognized by the pope in which he has granted the priests the faculty to give the sacrament of confession. And their masses and baptisms are also recognized as valid. They are in an irregular position, which is why their masses while valid are without permission of local bishops but the pope has never declared them (the order in toto) schismatic.
But, back to the original questions as I belong to a diocesan Traditional Latin Mass parish.
I never mentioned the SSPX, but they do have the lowest level of canonical status, which is the association level. They are a Catholic association recognized by the pope in which he has granted the priests the faculty to give the sacrament of confession. And their masses and baptisms are also recognized as valid. They are in an irregular position, which is why their masses while valid are without permission of local bishops but the pope has never declared them (the order in toto) schismatic.
But, back to the original questions as I belong to a diocesan Traditional Latin Mass parish.
F M Shyanguya
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@philosopher 
Thank you!
RE: OF & EF of the Roman Rite, these ought to help:
- Catholic Rites of the Church - Saint Joseph, Newton
- SANCTA MISSAMore
@philosopher Thank you!
RE: OF & EF of the Roman Rite, these ought to help:
- Catholic Rites of the Church - Saint Joseph, Newton
- SANCTA MISSA
RE: OF & EF of the Roman Rite, these ought to help:
- Catholic Rites of the Church - Saint Joseph, Newton
- SANCTA MISSA
