PiusX Priest: Novus Ordo Priests "Invalidly Ordained”
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@Rand Miller
The Dimond brothers’ video is mostly about liturgical abuse. As far as the validity of the Mass is concerned, they have nothing applicable to say since the Novus Ordo is not the TLM. They are quoting De Defectibus but their interpretation is disputable to say the least.
Saint Pius V in De Defectibus is not that radical, not that precise, and not wholly pertinent outside the Traditional …More
@Rand Miller
The Dimond brothers’ video is mostly about liturgical abuse. As far as the validity of the Mass is concerned, they have nothing applicable to say since the Novus Ordo is not the TLM. They are quoting De Defectibus but their interpretation is disputable to say the least.
Saint Pius V in De Defectibus is not that radical, not that precise, and not wholly pertinent outside the Traditional Roman Rite.
''V - Defects of the form
20. Defects on the part of the form may arise if anything is missing from the complete wording required for the act of consecrating".
Notice that he doesn't say WILL ARISE.
Then there's the wording in the Traditional Roman Rite. Of course, the other Rites are not concern by this formulation.
De defectibus: "Now the words of the Consecration, which are the form of this Sacrament, are:
HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM, and HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI: MYSTERIUM FIDEI: QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM”
Again, there is more than one Rite in the Church. For example, the Words of Consecration in the Byzantine Ukrainian Catholic Rite approved by the Catholic Church:
Pr: Take, eat, this is My Body, which is broken for you,
for the remission of sins.
R: Amen.
Pr: Drink of this all of you, this is My Blood of the New
Testament, which is shed for you and for many, for
the remission of sins.
R: Amen.
Pr: We offer to You Yours of Your own, on behalf of all
and for all.
Even in the New Testament, we have a different Mass from the Apostle Saint Paul:
1 Corinthian 11: 24-26: “Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.
In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the New Testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come”.
I could go on, but you get the picture. A lot of wordings had been used, and many are used today.
The Apostles and their successors didn’t want to recreate the Last Supper because inspired by the Holy Ghost, they knew that the Words of the Rite of the New Covenant are ‘’This is My Body” and “This is (the Cup of) My Blood”.
It implies that when a priest says these words, the Transubstantiation occurs at this very moment. Even before he starts the additional wording.
------------------------------------------------
For the pro multis or pro omnibus, both can be used but in a time when the heresy of systematic salvation is on trend, I understand that some people want the pro multis in the Mass, but there are other occasions to announce that salvation is not the only possible destiny and anyhow, the pro omnibus doesn't mean that in the first place.
Even if many will be deprived from the benefit of Salvation in Hell, the fact that the Work of Redemption is for everyone and that the Son of God suffers for all men and that His Blood is shed for all (in vain for many), is strongly et repeatedly affirmed in the Divinely inspired Holy Scriptures:
1 Timothy 2:5-6 “For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times”.
1 Timothy 4:10 “... we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.”
John 1:29 “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”
1 John 4:14 “And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world.”
--------------------------------------------------------
The words 'Mysterium Fidei' are necessary for the validity of the Words of Consecration, according to the Dimond brothers’ video, but then he fails to explain why the words 'Mysterium Fidei' are absent from other valid Catholic Rites. So, the author has no choice but to simply repeat that these words should be in the New Roman Rite.
As we can see in the writings of the antiquity nearly everything was improvised around the Consecration before the coming of partial liturgical books. That doesn't mean that the Mass was invalid in the time of the early Church.
Saint Justin Martyr [100-165] in his First Apology wrote:
“And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs [letters] of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read…Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given….And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined…For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, This is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone.”
Going back to De Defectibus:
If the priest were to shorten or change the form of the consecration of the Body and the Blood, so that in the change of wording the words did not mean the same thing, he would not be achieving a valid Sacrament.
This is the hard part to understand by some of us, here are two examples:
1º Removing the Words of Consecration -This is my Body - This is my Blood.
2º Saying ''this represents my body'' would be absolutely invalid.
De defectibus continues with this important addition:
If, on the other hand, he were to add or take away anything which did not change the meaning, the Sacrament would be valid.
@V.R.S.
The Dimond brothers’ video is mostly about liturgical abuse. As far as the validity of the Mass is concerned, they have nothing applicable to say since the Novus Ordo is not the TLM. They are quoting De Defectibus but their interpretation is disputable to say the least.
Saint Pius V in De Defectibus is not that radical, not that precise, and not wholly pertinent outside the Traditional Roman Rite.
''V - Defects of the form
20. Defects on the part of the form may arise if anything is missing from the complete wording required for the act of consecrating".
Notice that he doesn't say WILL ARISE.
Then there's the wording in the Traditional Roman Rite. Of course, the other Rites are not concern by this formulation.
De defectibus: "Now the words of the Consecration, which are the form of this Sacrament, are:
HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM, and HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI: MYSTERIUM FIDEI: QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM”
Again, there is more than one Rite in the Church. For example, the Words of Consecration in the Byzantine Ukrainian Catholic Rite approved by the Catholic Church:
Pr: Take, eat, this is My Body, which is broken for you,
for the remission of sins.
R: Amen.
Pr: Drink of this all of you, this is My Blood of the New
Testament, which is shed for you and for many, for
the remission of sins.
R: Amen.
Pr: We offer to You Yours of Your own, on behalf of all
and for all.
Even in the New Testament, we have a different Mass from the Apostle Saint Paul:
1 Corinthian 11: 24-26: “Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.
In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the New Testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come”.
I could go on, but you get the picture. A lot of wordings had been used, and many are used today.
The Apostles and their successors didn’t want to recreate the Last Supper because inspired by the Holy Ghost, they knew that the Words of the Rite of the New Covenant are ‘’This is My Body” and “This is (the Cup of) My Blood”.
It implies that when a priest says these words, the Transubstantiation occurs at this very moment. Even before he starts the additional wording.
------------------------------------------------
For the pro multis or pro omnibus, both can be used but in a time when the heresy of systematic salvation is on trend, I understand that some people want the pro multis in the Mass, but there are other occasions to announce that salvation is not the only possible destiny and anyhow, the pro omnibus doesn't mean that in the first place.
Even if many will be deprived from the benefit of Salvation in Hell, the fact that the Work of Redemption is for everyone and that the Son of God suffers for all men and that His Blood is shed for all (in vain for many), is strongly et repeatedly affirmed in the Divinely inspired Holy Scriptures:
1 Timothy 2:5-6 “For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times”.
1 Timothy 4:10 “... we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.”
John 1:29 “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”
1 John 4:14 “And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world.”
--------------------------------------------------------
The words 'Mysterium Fidei' are necessary for the validity of the Words of Consecration, according to the Dimond brothers’ video, but then he fails to explain why the words 'Mysterium Fidei' are absent from other valid Catholic Rites. So, the author has no choice but to simply repeat that these words should be in the New Roman Rite.
As we can see in the writings of the antiquity nearly everything was improvised around the Consecration before the coming of partial liturgical books. That doesn't mean that the Mass was invalid in the time of the early Church.
Saint Justin Martyr [100-165] in his First Apology wrote:
“And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs [letters] of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read…Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given….And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined…For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, This is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone.”
Going back to De Defectibus:
If the priest were to shorten or change the form of the consecration of the Body and the Blood, so that in the change of wording the words did not mean the same thing, he would not be achieving a valid Sacrament.
This is the hard part to understand by some of us, here are two examples:
1º Removing the Words of Consecration -This is my Body - This is my Blood.
2º Saying ''this represents my body'' would be absolutely invalid.
De defectibus continues with this important addition:
If, on the other hand, he were to add or take away anything which did not change the meaning, the Sacrament would be valid.
@V.R.S.
Rand Miller
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This is a claim that must be examined theologically, not emotionally. There is overwhelming evidence that Novus Ordo ordinations are invalid.
Yes, it must be examined theologically.
Of course, there are overwhelming boasts that NO ordinations are invalid.
Leaving aside the emotional domain:
As for priestly ordinations form: the removal of "ut" does not change anything.
As for bishops ordinations: in different rites there are different formulas so NO formula must be examined.
For sure, NO is neither the Roman Rite (which NO tries to replace, so …More
Yes, it must be examined theologically.
Of course, there are overwhelming boasts that NO ordinations are invalid.
Leaving aside the emotional domain:
As for priestly ordinations form: the removal of "ut" does not change anything.
As for bishops ordinations: in different rites there are different formulas so NO formula must be examined.
For sure, NO is neither the Roman Rite (which NO tries to replace, so Sacramentum Ordinis does not apply), nor the Anglican Rite (so Apostolicae Curae does not apply either).
Of course, there are overwhelming boasts that NO ordinations are invalid.
Leaving aside the emotional domain:
As for priestly ordinations form: the removal of "ut" does not change anything.
As for bishops ordinations: in different rites there are different formulas so NO formula must be examined.
For sure, NO is neither the Roman Rite (which NO tries to replace, so Sacramentum Ordinis does not apply), nor the Anglican Rite (so Apostolicae Curae does not apply either).
Rand Miller
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@V.R.S. It would hardly be a "boast" to have to conclude the NO ordinations are invalid and that millions of people are not receiving our Lord.
Why the New Mass and New Rite of Ordination are Invalid
Why the New Mass and New Rite of Ordination are Invalid
SSPX video with much more details than this one:
Crisis Series #39: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
To watch from the beginning or from 19:39 for the Sacrament of Holy Orders.More
SSPX video with much more details than this one:
Crisis Series #39: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
To watch from the beginning or from 19:39 for the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
Crisis Series #39: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
To watch from the beginning or from 19:39 for the Sacrament of Holy Orders.
la verdad prevalece
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Can a murderer of souls be considered a physician of the soul? These soul-killing apostates are Wolves in sheep's clothing.
la verdad prevalece
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The "Who am I to judge a sodomite priest by the heresiarch Bergoglio, is proof that he himself recognizes that he has no power to govern the Church.
To preach, to sanctify, and... Is something missing? | Catholic Culture
A bishop, the Church teaches, has a threefold office: as priest, prophet, and king. These roles correspond to a threefold mission: to teach, to sanctify, and to govern.
To preach, to sanctify, and... Is something missing? | Catholic Culture
A bishop, the Church teaches, has a threefold office: as priest, prophet, and king. These roles correspond to a threefold mission: to teach, to sanctify, and to govern.
Jan Joseph
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Pius X- vader Michael Johnson heeft groot gelijk dat de wijding van de Novus Ordo priesters ongeldig is. Alleen door de biecht, de bekering en een nieuwe wijding kunnen deze priesters geldige gewijde priesters worden.
Kenjiro M. Yoshimori
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@la verdad prevalece -After what I read today about Bergoglio's breathing problems, and asking my Uncle about it who is a Cardiologist....I think "Pope" Francis' days are numbered. My uncle said many elderly people like Bergoglio might survive an operation like he had, but go downhill rapidly with multiple complications afterward. All of which is a strain on the heart.
I think Bergoglio should …More
@la verdad prevalece -After what I read today about Bergoglio's breathing problems, and asking my Uncle about it who is a Cardiologist....I think "Pope" Francis' days are numbered. My uncle said many elderly people like Bergoglio might survive an operation like he had, but go downhill rapidly with multiple complications afterward. All of which is a strain on the heart.
I think Bergoglio should reflect on his disasterous pontificate, and confess his grave sins before it's too late....which may be sooner for him that we all think.
I think Bergoglio should reflect on his disasterous pontificate, and confess his grave sins before it's too late....which may be sooner for him that we all think.
la verdad prevalece
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Bergoglio and his apostate sect are murderers of souls who defy the functions of the true priest, which is to teach, preach and sanctify.
la verdad prevalece
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Even a Catholic group investigated that Bergoglio did not receive the diaconate so he does not even have the power to bless.
Louis Legare
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There have been many Eucharistic miracles in the Novus Ordo.
Mynor Zuñiga
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Exactly. In my country and surrounding countries we only have Novus Ordo, I know it is not the most reverent form, and I admit that it has been plagued with relaxed practices in some places, but to say all our priests are invalid is throwing in the bin entire countries. These kinds of superiority claims sound very pharisaical in my opinion, like saying "Only I have the means to salvation, unfortunately …More
Exactly. In my country and surrounding countries we only have Novus Ordo, I know it is not the most reverent form, and I admit that it has been plagued with relaxed practices in some places, but to say all our priests are invalid is throwing in the bin entire countries. These kinds of superiority claims sound very pharisaical in my opinion, like saying "Only I have the means to salvation, unfortunately you don't" and they do nothing about it, I have personally been in some traditional rites in other countries and wish we could have access to it, but the Novus Ordo is what we have, and I have seen the work of God through many of it's priests.
Kenjiro M. Yoshimori
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@Louis Legare "There have been many Eucharistic miracles in the Novus Ordo."
I do not believe that for 1 second
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@Louis Legare "There have been many Eucharistic miracles in the Novus Ordo."
I do not believe that for 1 second
I do not believe that for 1 second
St Luke 6:44 For every tree is known by its fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns; nor from a bramble bush do they gather the grape.
Thinking on this, Eucharistic miracles are a gift of God to the faithless and there has been numerous such miracles in the Novus Ordo.More
St Luke 6:44 For every tree is known by its fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns; nor from a bramble bush do they gather the grape.
Thinking on this, Eucharistic miracles are a gift of God to the faithless and there has been numerous such miracles in the Novus Ordo.
Thinking on this, Eucharistic miracles are a gift of God to the faithless and there has been numerous such miracles in the Novus Ordo.
Youtube censored his video? It must then be true. Otherwise, why would they care?
Kenjiro M. Yoshimori
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@Seabass -That's right. I believe this priest. All the Novus Ordo Sacraments are phoney. There really isn't any Novus Ordo either. Thats all a joke. I've been to the "Novus Ordo" most of my life, and have seen it celebrated completely different from parish to parish. Some parishes still cling to the imbecilic "guitar Masses", others use Gregorian Chant (they are the best Novus Ordo parishes), some …More
@Seabass -That's right. I believe this priest. All the Novus Ordo Sacraments are phoney. There really isn't any Novus Ordo either. Thats all a joke. I've been to the "Novus Ordo" most of my life, and have seen it celebrated completely different from parish to parish. Some parishes still cling to the imbecilic "guitar Masses", others use Gregorian Chant (they are the best Novus Ordo parishes), some of the priests strut around like a Baptist minister during the Homily, others use the elaborate pulpits. Some have altar-girls. Others don't allow it. Some have women all over the altar, others don't. Some priests make up the words of all parts of the Mass (even the Consecration), others stick to the book. So really, there is no "Novus Ordo". Everyone does their own thing. And we wonder why no one goes to Mass? I can imagine how much worse it is in Europe....where they REALLY don't go to Mass. Saint Paul VI?? Yeah, right. Him a Saint is a bigger joke than the Novus Ordo!!!!!!