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Pachamama Throws the Friends of Francis Into Confusion - by Father Reto Nay

Francis’ spin doctor, Andrea Tornielli, bewailed on VaticanNews.va (October 22) what he calls “the sad episode of the theft and destruction of Amazonian images.”

He presents these “images” as “wooden statuettes of the Amazonian tradition depicting a young pregnant woman,” and even as “an effigy of motherhood and the sacredness of life” which he relates to Francis of Assisi’s mentioning of “mother earth" in his Canticle of the Sun. Tornielli carefully avoids any reference to paganism.

But then, suddenly, he turns to the Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (1878) where John Hendry Newman speaks – Tornielli’s words – about “the Church’s acceptance of pagan elements,”

“The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church.”

Luis Badilla, another spin doctor of Francis, did not like Tornielli’s explanation.

He calls his arguments on IlSismografo.Blogspot.com (October 22) “misleading and insidious,” insisting that in the case of the statues “there is no ‘adoption by the Church of pagan elements.’"

Badilla insists that “nobody!!”, including Francis, the Synod or the Vatican spokesman, ever said that Pachamama was “a pagan element to be adopted by the Church.” He calls it “an object like so many others” brought to the Synod as a gift.

But then, unfortunately, Badilla throws himself under the bus by saying, “In this case there has never been any adoption of pagan elements in the liturgy of the Church.”

Pardon me! Did he so quickly forget the Pachamama adoration in the Vatican Gardens at which Francis so eagerly participated?

Pachamama plonge les amis de François dans la confusion - par le Père Reto Nay
catholique.forumactif.com/t554-news-au-24-octobre-2019
Andrea Tornielli, le doreur d'image de François, a pleuré sur VaticanNews.va (22 octobre) ce qu'il appelle « le triste épisode du vol et de la destruction des images amazoniennes ».

Il présente ces « images » comme des « statuettes en bois de la tradition amaz…More
Pachamama plonge les amis de François dans la confusion - par le Père Reto Nay
catholique.forumactif.com/t554-news-au-24-octobre-2019
Andrea Tornielli, le doreur d'image de François, a pleuré sur VaticanNews.va (22 octobre) ce qu'il appelle « le triste épisode du vol et de la destruction des images amazoniennes ».

Il présente ces « images » comme des « statuettes en bois de la tradition amazonienne représentant une jeune femme enceinte », et même comme « une effigie de la maternité et du caractère sacré de la vie » qu'il rapporte à la mention par François d'Assise de la « mère terre » dans son Cantique du Soleil. Tornielli évite soigneusement toute référence au paganisme.

Mais soudain, il se tourne vers l'Essai sur le développement de la doctrine chrétienne (1878) où John Henry Newman parle - les paroles de Tornielli - de « l'acceptation par l'Église des éléments païens ».

Luis Badilla, un autre doreur d'image de François, n'a pas aimé l'explication de Tornielli.

Il appelle ses arguments sur IlSismografo.Blogspot.com (22 octobre) « trompeurs et insidieux », insistant sur le fait que dans le cas des statues « il n'y a pas "adoption par l'Église d'éléments païens" ».

Badilla insiste sur le fait que « personne », y compris François, le Synode ou le porte-parole du Vatican, n'a jamais dit que la Pachamama était « un élément païen à adopter par l'Église ». Il l'appelle « un objet comme tant d'autres » apporté au Synode comme un don.

Mais alors, malheureusement, Badilla se jette sous le bus en disant : « Dans ce cas, il n'y a jamais eu d'adoption d'éléments païens dans la liturgie de l'Église. »

Pardonnez-moi ! A-t-il si vite oublié l'adoration de la Pachamama dans les Jardins du Vatican à laquelle François participait avec tant d'enthousiasme ?

[Et moi j'ajoute : Ils ont promené la Pachamama en procession. Or ils disent que ce ne sont que des objets. Parfait ! Je vous conseille donc d'organiser une procession qui porterait, par exemple, vos ordinateurs ! Qu'en pensez-vous ?]
Personally I think that too much is made over this Packyomama deal but I couldn’t help but have a few ideas.

Perhaps I’ve watched too many crime movies but, although I truly admire the actions of those involved in the “theft”, I believe the entire saga could have been more effective.

Yes, take the Packyomamas but replace them with statues of the Virgin. In fact, remove …More
Personally I think that too much is made over this Packyomama deal but I couldn’t help but have a few ideas.

Perhaps I’ve watched too many crime movies but, although I truly admire the actions of those involved in the “theft”, I believe the entire saga could have been more effective.

Yes, take the Packyomamas but replace them with statues of the Virgin. In fact, remove all that Indian c*ap and take that too. Secondly, make sure that all those involved are masked and film the entire event from start to finish. Now, this is the most important point. Don’t throw the goofy statues into the Tiber. Although this has a nice dramatic effect and would be great if this were a movie, throwing them into the river would prevent doing what I am now about to suggest.

Wait a month or two then put the Pachyomamas on Ebay. Include the film taken which will verify that these are the real Pachyomamas and not some phony, plastic banana, good time rock & roll imitations.

Starting price $4000 and then let the bidding begin. Now the coup de grâce would be to take any money that was received and donate it (anonymously) to a pro-life organization.

It’s a win – win. You remove the goofy Pachyomamas and replace them with the Blessed Mother (that sticks it to the brainless, ecumenical, do-gooders in the Vatican) then you take the money received from selling these (authentic ancient Indian artifacts) and give it to pro-lifers. All of it done anonymously. What’s not to like?
DJRESQ
Speaking as an attorney, I would say that the Pachamama idols that were the actual ones involved here would never be able to be sold on ebay. Ebay is a U.S. based corporation. Technically, the idols were stolen, and in the U.S., stolen items cannot lawfully be sold to a third party. Personally, I would have smashed them with a hammer before throwing them into the Tiber; however, I stand in …More
Speaking as an attorney, I would say that the Pachamama idols that were the actual ones involved here would never be able to be sold on ebay. Ebay is a U.S. based corporation. Technically, the idols were stolen, and in the U.S., stolen items cannot lawfully be sold to a third party. Personally, I would have smashed them with a hammer before throwing them into the Tiber; however, I stand in solidarity with those soldiers of Christ.
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Good point.

After advice from Legal Counsel as to the best course of action, I will amend my suggesting that the Packyomamas be sold on Ebay. Instead they can be sold surreptitiously (perhaps at a greater price) to a party or parties sought out on the dark web. As much as we are repulsed by how these artifacts were used, they can be considered works of art. As such, I would sell them. Do it …More
Good point.

After advice from Legal Counsel as to the best course of action, I will amend my suggesting that the Packyomamas be sold on Ebay. Instead they can be sold surreptitiously (perhaps at a greater price) to a party or parties sought out on the dark web. As much as we are repulsed by how these artifacts were used, they can be considered works of art. As such, I would sell them. Do it for the money.
I am not an attorney but I think like one.
@Holy Cannoli My inner antiquities dealer applauds your steadfast dedication to fencing stolen works of primitive art. Though on that last point, I wonder how much you'd actually get for them since they're clearly modern era products and there's no established provenance they have any particular ethnographic rarity. I mean, we're not talking about an antique New Guinea Asmat cannibal fetish. …More
@Holy Cannoli My inner antiquities dealer applauds your steadfast dedication to fencing stolen works of primitive art. Though on that last point, I wonder how much you'd actually get for them since they're clearly modern era products and there's no established provenance they have any particular ethnographic rarity. I mean, we're not talking about an antique New Guinea Asmat cannibal fetish. Those idols look like tourist junk.

Regardless of their actual value, my inner zealot insists DJRESQ has the right of it, even if they were ancient and literally priceless. They were used to profane a Catholic church. Smash them, then burn them, a purifying act which has centuries of rich Catholic tradition behind it. Film it, and post the vid on multiple online venues so the Vatican can't lie (as they have) and claim, "oh we found 'em and they're all okay 'n stuff."
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Tesa
Tornielli et al. Stop writing. Start diving.
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They might start near the Cloaca magna
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It has to be full considering the spewing of filth from this synod.
Susi 47
Start sailing: they should start sailing
Simply sailing
Far away
Oftom the river tiber into the ocean
They should be sailing each day far far away
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How to make Catholics happy
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Here is another of Francis' spin doctors
Eva
And we thought, the main difference is that one is a statue of Our Lady and the other is a "mother-nature effigy"
Tesa
Just another Austi provocation
It is clear that Ivereigh is REALLY sorry for his idols
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Ivereigh is a particularly obnoxious, arrogant, sycophantic TWIT. For some reason He really galls me. I think it's his slimy way of perverting even the most genuinely charitable of Catholics defense of Christ and his CHURCH into some type of " hate speech". Disgusting.
Austen really really loves the idols. The hill the Modernists choose to die on.
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