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Facts Not Lies
I cannot say the shame I experienced from the clergy near me during the uncertain times of AIDS/HIV.

Between claims that it was 'Gods hand' to outright fear; far too many found others needs greater than those who suffered from AIDS/HIV

More care was provided by the general community (middle class individuals deciding that it matters and giving their own time and money) than was seen by the …More
I cannot say the shame I experienced from the clergy near me during the uncertain times of AIDS/HIV.

Between claims that it was 'Gods hand' to outright fear; far too many found others needs greater than those who suffered from AIDS/HIV

More care was provided by the general community (middle class individuals deciding that it matters and giving their own time and money) than was seen by the churches until the disease and attack vector were known well.
Facts Not Lies
And people listen to him decades later...
Ultraviolet
Given the number of untreated AIDS-related deaths throughout the third world, "D" is for discredited. @Steve D. Even a few moments of thought would have kept you from making a loud-mouthed fool of yourself once again.
mccallansteve
How many souls is Francis sending to hell?
Ultraviolet
None. Only God sends souls and only by the virtue of their own choices.
Live Mike
Change the word "sending" to leading
thomasvalle
This is another example of pure calumny of the Holy Father, driving people to hate the pope. As for the cartoon, it takes the pope’s words completely out of context.
petrus100452
@thomasvalle: Come on... pope Francis gives cause for such cartoons and for such "calumny" almost every day. How in the world can anyone defend him anymore...?
thomasvalle
By the time the pope’s words and actions are filtered and presented by the media and reshaped through the Internet, the public is reacting to incomplete, biased and distorted reports turned inside out by political spin to serve their cause. We see the same thing happen in politics all the time, putting the worst possible spin and false intention to any and every thing the one they hate does (And …More
By the time the pope’s words and actions are filtered and presented by the media and reshaped through the Internet, the public is reacting to incomplete, biased and distorted reports turned inside out by political spin to serve their cause. We see the same thing happen in politics all the time, putting the worst possible spin and false intention to any and every thing the one they hate does (And viceversa if they report on someone they like.)

Today the Internet is like one giant global Chinese telephone game, that, by the time the original phrase or message is passed through a number of people, one gets a completely distorted message by the end of the line.

The big deception is from the devil, who uses the media to attack the head of the Church in order to divide and conquer souls by driving them to do his work. Pope Benedict explained how the mass media did this with what he called the false perception of Vatican II:

youtu.be/CfTWC5lPshM
philosopher
You do know that Pope Francis holds theological opinions that are counter to the orthodox Catholic faith. And, that is without any spin.
Mikhael Manafort Montrose
If Pope Francis were being misrepresented, wouldn’t it be his fault, for a lack of clarity?
It feels like in the “Novus Ordo” Catholic Church, a lack of clarity is how the anti-traditional stuff spreads. Obviously, I don’t know a whole lot, but reading the Vat II documents, and looking at Pope Francis’ particular statements, especially his refusal to clarify them, the lack of clarity is there to …More
If Pope Francis were being misrepresented, wouldn’t it be his fault, for a lack of clarity?
It feels like in the “Novus Ordo” Catholic Church, a lack of clarity is how the anti-traditional stuff spreads. Obviously, I don’t know a whole lot, but reading the Vat II documents, and looking at Pope Francis’ particular statements, especially his refusal to clarify them, the lack of clarity is there to allow both a traditional and anti-traditional interpretation.
thomasvalle
@philosopher I’m aware of the Internet talking heads accusing him of all sorts of things. I have also seen how his Spanish and Italian is often lost in translation and reinterpreted by individuals who inject false intentions, and give his words the worst possible interpretation. He has always said that his words should be understood in the context of Church teaching.
thomasvalle
@Mikhael Manafort Montrose I think the big problem is that most Catholics never read the entire Catechism of the Catholic Church, and much less read papal encyclicals or are even aware of the Church’s teachings on Catholic Social Doctrine; instead many spend more time reading the Internet reacting to sensational headlines and videos accusing the pope of all sorts of things.

I think what best …More
@Mikhael Manafort Montrose I think the big problem is that most Catholics never read the entire Catechism of the Catholic Church, and much less read papal encyclicals or are even aware of the Church’s teachings on Catholic Social Doctrine; instead many spend more time reading the Internet reacting to sensational headlines and videos accusing the pope of all sorts of things.

I think what best captures the pontificate of this pope is summarized in the pectoral cross he chooses to wear, which depicts the good shepherd in search of the lost sheep. No matter how far, or how low, or how lost in sin a human being has fallen, God is still calling and meeting them where they are in life.

The pope began his pontificate teaching that the Catholic faith and the gospel cannot be reduced to merely voting against abortion and being against gay marriage; and his pet peeve seems to be Catholics who seem to reduce the gospel to keeping rules and attending beautiful liturgies. And he’s not particularly impressed by people converting to Catholicism, since he comes from Latin America where most people are baptized Catholics but not necessarily living the gospel. His message is one of transformation and conversion of heart, and love of God through neighbor, not merely an intellectual theological acceptance of doctrinal truths and a politicization of the faith. This in turn seems to have been lost in translation and ruffled a lot of feathers to the point where for many, everything he says is filtered through smoke colored glasses. This happens in politics all the time. If someone doesn’t like someone, no matter what that person says is given the worst possible spin and intention, and vice-versa if it is someone they like.

Pope Francis is merely reiterating what his predecessors had said, only Francis has put them into practice..
philosopher
@thomasvalle I would say, PF is all about the rules concerning adherence to the N.O. liturgy and the doctrines of modernism but I digress.

The following example, from a notable Catholic philosopher and student of Dietrich von Hildebrand who was called a doctor of the Church by Pius XII has described the Pope's latest heterodox opinion on universalism of all religions. Seifert is Austrian, but …More
@thomasvalle I would say, PF is all about the rules concerning adherence to the N.O. liturgy and the doctrines of modernism but I digress.

The following example, from a notable Catholic philosopher and student of Dietrich von Hildebrand who was called a doctor of the Church by Pius XII has described the Pope's latest heterodox opinion on universalism of all religions. Seifert is Austrian, but before retirement taught Catholic philosophy for many years in South America and is fluent in the PF's native language- and thus, he understands what Francis is saying perfectly clear. This is just one example of a long litany of heterodox teachings.

Josef Seifert: Francis Has “Rejected Christianity”, Turned God into a "Relativist"

The famous Austrian philosopher Josef Seifert has sharply criticized Pope Francis’ Abu Dhabi claim that pluralism and diversity of religions are "willed by God".

In an article published on Grave Concerns About Pope Francis’ Abu Dhabi Document - By Professor Josef Seifert (February 8) Seifert asks, "How can God will religions that deny Christ's divinity and resurrection?"

For Seifert Francis' statement "contains all heresies" and turns God into a relativist who "does not know" that there is only one truth and "does not care" whether men believe in truth or falsity.

He concludes that in his Abu Dhabi document Francis "rejected Christianity" and implies that God must hate the Catholic Church because it rejects any relativization of the Christian religion that would turn it into one of many contradictory religions.

Seifert asks Francis to recant his heresy,

"If he does not do this, I am afraid that Canon Law may apply according to which a Pope automatically loses his Petrine office when professing heresy, especially when he professes the sum-total of all heresies."
Ultraviolet
"As for the cartoon, it takes the pope’s words completely out of context." Unsupported premise. No evidence presented showing this is the case..

"the public is reacting to incomplete, biased and distorted reports"

See my last point.

" I have also seen how his Spanish and Italian is often lost in translation"

Wash, rinse repeat...

"He has always said that his words should be understood in …More
"As for the cartoon, it takes the pope’s words completely out of context." Unsupported premise. No evidence presented showing this is the case..

"the public is reacting to incomplete, biased and distorted reports"

See my last point.

" I have also seen how his Spanish and Italian is often lost in translation"

Wash, rinse repeat...

"He has always said that his words should be understood in the context of Church teaching."

Quote Church teaching on worshipping statues of pagan goddesses. ;-)

" the Internet is like one giant global Chinese telephone game"

Quoting the Pope verbatim contradicts that claim.
thomasvalle
@Ultraviolet Let’s take what you just said and make that an example. The cartoon quote shows the pope saying:

It doesn’t matter who you are and how you live your life

Anyone reading that quote out of context, as shown in the slanderous cartoon, would get a much different impression than what the pope was actually saying.

In context, the pope was answering a direct question by someone who is …More
@Ultraviolet Let’s take what you just said and make that an example. The cartoon quote shows the pope saying:

It doesn’t matter who you are and how you live your life

Anyone reading that quote out of context, as shown in the slanderous cartoon, would get a much different impression than what the pope was actually saying.

In context, the pope was answering a direct question by someone who is not part of the Church and who briefly met him in a group audience. The question was: “As a gay man, I don’t feel accepted” [by the Church]

The Pope responded: “Giving more importance to the adjective [Gay] rather than the noun [Man], this is not good. We are all human beings and have dignity. It does not matter who you are or how you live your life, you do not lose your dignity. There are people that prefer to select or discard people because of the adjective – these people don’t have a human heart.”

In his answer Pope Francis was reiterating Church teaching that the dignity of the human person is rooted in his creation in the image and likeness of God (Catechism entry #1700).

In other words, Pope Francis was talking about people who look at others with disdain and condemnation, like the religious folks in the gospels were ready to condemn and stone rather than to be treated like the way Christ treated the lost sheep. Think about the prodigal son and the attitude of the father in that parable.

Furthermore reflect on the words of St. Paul who explained:
“What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” 1 Cor. 5:12-13

Over and over the same thing has been done by people quoting this pope and misrepresenting his intentions to the detriment of others and themselves. It is no light thing to attack a pope, the visible Vicar of Christ on earth, and there are Catholics who do it without realizing the spiritual consequences of spreading such gossip and slander. Thus the warnings of Scripture about the sins of the tongue, which includes the written word.
Bruceph Mildur
"There are people that prefer to select or discard people because of the adjective – these people don’t have a human heart". This is a manipulative lie, imo, which is Bergoglio's specialty, also my opinion which (substatiated in his actions every single day since he... you pick a date-not by misrepresentation). People reject (as does the One True, Holy, Apostolic Catholic Church) people because …More
"There are people that prefer to select or discard people because of the adjective – these people don’t have a human heart". This is a manipulative lie, imo, which is Bergoglio's specialty, also my opinion which (substatiated in his actions every single day since he... you pick a date-not by misrepresentation). People reject (as does the One True, Holy, Apostolic Catholic Church) people because of their sin. It's kinda like your job. (see clip for reference: The Shining (1980): Wendy, I'm Home - YouTube) Because sin is death. I repeat, sin is death. And making heartless those who see or defend the Natural Truth is right out of Satans' playbook.

"It does not matter who you are or how you live your life, you do not lose your dignity". This is a steaming pile if I ever heard one. Of course you loose your dignity. Of course you do. Study the prodigal son parable and explain how, moreover, when dignity is lost, when it's retained, when it's conferred, when it's rejected, where it comes from, etc... give me the whole schpeal on dignity. Judas has dinity right? Jeffery Dalmer has dinity right? Lex Luther for crying out loud, Dignity! Ru Paul, perhaps? Er, no. Hell no.

Judgement is the Lord's. OK.
Hugh N. Cry
I think there is a big difference between the “religious” like in the Gospel and those on GTV. We’re not asking to stone or condemn, we’re asking for “your sins are forgiven, go, and sin no more.”
thomasvalle
@Bruceph Mildur again, the problem is that people keep twisting the pope’s point.
Bruceph Mildur
At some time one has to own their stuff. By their fruits you shall know them.
thomasvalle
@philosopher it just goes to show the influence of the media; Josef Seifert was responding to the sensational headlines. In context, the pope was speaking about God’s "permissive will". After all, nothing happens without God permitting it. Here is the pope in his own words:
Pope on other religions
Mikhael Manafort Montrose
He told someone not to convert, though. Maybe his being from South America obviously shaped his thinking, but is that true Catholic doctrine?
Keep in mind, I am interested in both Catholicism and Orthodox Churches, and I have no inside knowledge. I’ll compare some things I have heard. I really appreciate you addressing my concerns.
1. Is conversion necessary for salvation in Catholicism? The Orth…More
He told someone not to convert, though. Maybe his being from South America obviously shaped his thinking, but is that true Catholic doctrine?
Keep in mind, I am interested in both Catholicism and Orthodox Churches, and I have no inside knowledge. I’ll compare some things I have heard. I really appreciate you addressing my concerns.
1. Is conversion necessary for salvation in Catholicism? The Orthodox priest told me that “there is no salvation outside the Church,” and that by Church, he meant Orthodox Church. According to Catholicism, can I “cover both bases,” by converting to Orthodox, and still be considered part of the Catholic religion?
2. The Pachamama stuff. The Orthodox Priest told me that they do not allow laypeople on the altar, also that I would not be able to burn incense to my ancestors (I am of Singaporean Chinese ancestry). I’m pretty sure that he would not tolerate the statue of Pachamama, especially bringing it inside the Church, and bowing to it. I’m pretty sure that he would rather encourage those Indians to become part of his Church. Now I read that Pachamama replaced the Virgin Mary in the “Hail Mary” prayer in a part of Argentina, which is the pope’s home. I am waiting for him to address it. Even if Francis was not praying to Pachamama, ot was a very severe signal to send, and apparently his people, who know him best, believe that he would be fine with praying to Pachamama, since he did honor to that statue.

I don’t know. I don’t like the whole “meet people where they are” stuff. Just seems like an excuse to be liberal.

I mean, I am obviously a lost person, but that means I need clear explanations, and teachings, which is more in the Orthodox Church.

The social teaching seems to be all he focuses on. Also, the way he teaches it seems to be little different than the beliefs of the American Democratic Party, and other left wing parties in Western nations.

Lastly, he seems to do the kind of thing the American Republican President Bush did, where he only has smoke for those more traditional than him, while actual evil people, like the witch Nancy Pelosi, and the fake President Joe Biden, are not told to change anything. They are told a bunch of fluff about luv (the American texting phrase not real love) but not to stop murdering babies, which is what Catholicism says it is anyway.

What’s up with your Church in general? Why are your bishops so weak acting? You would think they would be doing more like the Orthodox priests or even the Muslim Imams, by being confident telling clear truth. It’s like they want to play politics with North American and European liberals, when most of them have no interest in Church.
philosopher
@thomasvalle "it just goes to show the influence of the media; Josef Seifert was responding to the sensational headlines"- that is a baseless claim. In the interview with Seifert, he goes full Socrates on the Popes writings taking it on point by point, and not formulated from watching T.V. or reading social media posts.
thomasvalle
@philosopher The pope said he was talking about God’s “permisive will” thus in that context the pope is right. Joseph Seifert did not mention that to pope said permissive will. You can watch the pope say “permissive will” in the video link I shared earlier.
Wilma Lopez
What's a moral dilemma for Francis? A poor, marginalized LGBT migrant who attends the Traditional Latin Mass.
thomasvalle
Pope Francis has made it clear that hypocritical Christians who live a double life are corrupt persons and are hell-bound. He’s always exhorting the faithful to go to confession and repent. As for non-Christians living sinful lives, he simply echoes St. Paul, who said: “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. …More
Pope Francis has made it clear that hypocritical Christians who live a double life are corrupt persons and are hell-bound. He’s always exhorting the faithful to go to confession and repent. As for non-Christians living sinful lives, he simply echoes St. Paul, who said: “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you”-1 Cor. 5:12-13
Mikhael Manafort Montrose
Pope Francis isn’t expelling anyone, though. He told Biden he was a good Catholic.
He seems to only have smoke for the Latin Mass people.
Mathathias Maccabeus
Well, except that the phrase, “you never lose your dignity” is false, and a new and strange doctrine. The Church has taught for 2,000 years that you lose your dignity when you sin mortally.

Just one example:
From St. Thomas Aquinas:
By sinning man departs from the order of reason, and consequently falls away from the dignity of his manhood, in so far as he is naturally free, and exists …More
Well, except that the phrase, “you never lose your dignity” is false, and a new and strange doctrine. The Church has taught for 2,000 years that you lose your dignity when you sin mortally.

Just one example:
From St. Thomas Aquinas:
By sinning man departs from the order of reason, and consequently falls away from the dignity of his manhood, in so far as he is naturally free, and exists for himself, and he falls into the slavish state of the beasts, by being disposed of according as he is useful to others.”
thomasvalle
@Mikhael Manafort Montrose If you want to learn about the Catholic Faith study the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

In a nutshell, to be saved one must repent of one’s sins, turn away from sin, believe in the gospel and be baptized. Those who knowingly reject the faith are rejecting Christ and His Church, putting themselves outside the Church. Obviously those who do not know that the …More
@Mikhael Manafort Montrose If you want to learn about the Catholic Faith study the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

In a nutshell, to be saved one must repent of one’s sins, turn away from sin, believe in the gospel and be baptized. Those who knowingly reject the faith are rejecting Christ and His Church, putting themselves outside the Church. Obviously those who do not know that the Catholic faith is the true faith cannot knowingly reject it, thus they will be judged by what they know; God’s laws are written on everyone’s heart.
Meeting the people where they are is what Christ did with the woman at the well.

That there are wolves and modernists in the Church and the Vatican, and corrupt people seeking power in the Church is true.

The reality is that there were, are, and always will be liars, hypocrites, adulterers, thieves, murderers, perverts, traitors and all sort of scoundrels among both the laity and the clergy, beginning with Judas Iscariot who was a liar, a thief, a hypocrite and a traitor, even though Judas was personally chosen by Christ. Christ Himself spoke about how there will always be weeds among the wheat, but among the wicked there will always be the saintly and those striving for true holiness.

One should not confuse religiousness with holiness. This is a big problem in the Church today. The Pharisees were very religious, they fasted, gave alms and talked about a God all day, yet God himself called them whitewashed sepulchers. In other words, religiosity without conversion of heart always becomes hypocrisy, something ] pope Francis is always warning against.

Catholics on the internet should spend their time Evangelizing rather that pointing out all the scandals and attacking the pope. We see the same thing in the gospels, how people who thought themselves close to God and extremely religious were attacking Christ.

As for the Pachamama saga, one need only watch the event in context. The claim that the natives were bowing down and worshipping the “Pachamama idol” is based on an edited video snippet showing them bowing down to the little wooden statue. In reality, they were giving thanks to God as our Father and thanking Him for Creation when they bowed down. What most people saw was an edited clip. Furthermore, the event was in the context of the feast of Saint Francis of Assisi where in the ceremony they sang St. Francis’ Canticle of the Sun, where St. Francis gives thanks to God for “Brother Sun” “Sister Moon” and “Mother Earth”. those are the words of St. Francis of Assisi.

The problem is that people were too lazy to watch the entire event, and put their faith in the Internet and all the talking heads who see everything through smoke-colored glasses. Since they obviously did not understand the Spanish, Portuguese and Italian that was spoken at the ceremony, they based their conclusions on what they saw edited. Once again, the gossip and the false news narrative drowned out the truth, and people were reacting and taking sides on the false narratives. Here is that ceremony in context if you want to watch the whole thing. The wooden statue was part of a display, along with a parrot, canoes and fishing nets and other items representing Amazonian regions. In the end you will see these same people planting trees giving thanks to God Our Father our Creator, and not “installing demons” or worshipping pagan idols as you may have heard on the Internet. Here is the video:

youtu.be/wPK7RpoUzPk
De Profundis
Francis' letter